Gigginstown/Mullins
- Thread starter del boy
- Start date
granger
Senior Jockey
Everyone hopefully
GE will likely get the cream of the crop
Hopefully they share out horses with a few lower profile trainers too
GE will likely get the cream of the crop
Hopefully they share out horses with a few lower profile trainers too
granger
Senior Jockey
Better for racing in that it creates rivalry.
Also increases the chances of the better horses racing against each other
Also increases the chances of the better horses racing against each other
This
great news all round, and as for the "disputed fees" excuse it's obviously bollocks
running plans is the reason and we all know it
something was always gonna give when you've got 3 of the big NH owners having their best horses in the same yard
great day for the game imo
granger
Senior Jockey
Apple's jade can run in the champion now if she is good enough
archie
Senior Jockey
I doubt that. Willie has never worried about running Wylie or Ricci horses against Giggi. Apples Jade ran in all the top 4yo festival races last season.
Giggi have always seemed to want more control of their horses than the other big owners and I'd be confident that it's basically a case of two strong-willed men disagreeing over a matter of principle. Willie simply wasn't prepared to have the situation where Giggi paid less than other owners. We're only talking about approx £100k pa so hardly a large amount to Giggi.
I hear it was because Willie refused to sell scratch cards.
archie
Senior Jockey
:lol:
..and he wanted them to pay extra for the baggage they come with.
granger
Senior Jockey
edgt
Senior Jockey
Was it Cantoris that told us on a GWD weekend that WPM and Noel Meade would not give Giggi training fee deals back in the Tiger days so Charles Byrnes, Tony Martin, Dessie Hughes etc did 4 for 3 deals or what have you.
Commeth the crash and all trainers had empty stables for Giggi.
Ryanair do not do price increases it seems.
Might they take on Colm Murphy as private trainer ?
Hardly Paul Carberry but miracles do happen.
Commeth the crash and all trainers had empty stables for Giggi.
Ryanair do not do price increases it seems.
Might they take on Colm Murphy as private trainer ?
Hardly Paul Carberry but miracles do happen.
fonz
At the Start
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I've reserved judgement on that one so far
Beating up her own age group in a soft grade 1 is a different kettle of fish to the big one on the Tuesday.
Ivantheterrible
At the Start
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Valseur Lido in the GC.
Got wood.
Got wood.
Diamond Geezer
Gone But Not Forgotten
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Kevin Blake's blog from ATR
The National Hunt racing world was stunned on Wednesday morning by the news that Champion Owner Gigginstown House Stud were removing 60 horses of their horses from the care of Champion Trainer Willie Mullins.
It represents the highest-profile owner-trainer split in many years in Irish racing and has the potential to fundamentally alter the entire balance of the National Hunt racing world.
The reason given for the split by Willie Mullins is that his decision to raise his training fees, reportedly for the first time in 10 years, did not go down well with Gigginstown and this was why they had decided to take their horses away from him.
It will seem remarkable to many that such a powerful and successful partnership could come to an end based on something as seemingly innocuous as a rise in training fees, but this isn’t the first time that Willie Mullins and Gigginstown House have allegedly had issues with regard to training fees.
It has been a persistent rumour in Irish racing circles that Gigginstown essentially name their own fixed price that they are willing to pay all of their trainers to train their horses. The vast majority of trainers are willing to play ball with this out-of-the-ordinary policy, such is the quality of horse that Gigginstown send in their direction.
However, it is worth noting that it wasn’t until the 2010/11 season that Gigginstown, who at that stage had grown to an operation with over 100 horses in training with over 20 trainers and had secured their first Champion Owner title the previous season, sent a horse to the Champion Trainer Willie Mullins.
Industry chatter suggested that the reason why they had not combined to that point was that Mullins had been unwilling to train horses for the amount Gigginstown were willing to pay him.
Whether it was Mullins or Gigginstown that blinked first in this regard is not a matter of public record, but from numerically small beginnings with Sir Des Champs, Samain and Lovethehigherlaw that season, the Mullins/Gigginstown relationship has grown season-on-season ever since to the point where the team combined for 50 winners in the last campaign.
So, what will this seismic split mean for National Hunt racing?
The immediate reaction of many racing enthusiasts on social media was that while it was sad to see such a successful relationship come to an end, the removal of the Gigginstown talent from Mullins’s hands could well serve to increase competitiveness in a National Hunt scene that some perceive as being dominated by Mullins to an unhealthy degree.
One thing for sure is that while losing 60 such high-quality horses would be a hammer blow to any other National Hunt trainer in the game, such is the strength and depth of his team of owners and horses, Willie Mullins is better equipped than anyone to absorb such a blow and still come out on top.
To quantify the size of the blow that Mullins will be taking, the statistics reveal that Gigginstown-owned horses provided approximately 25% of the winners and prize money secured by Mullins-trained horses in Ireland and just under 15% of the prize money that Mullins-trained horses earned in Great Britain during the 2015/16 season.
However, while it is a blow that Mullins is well equipped to take, it is one that could be a game changer in Ireland depending on where the horses are sent. In statistical terms, Mullins was in his most dominant position in Irish National Hunt racing during the 2012/13 and 2013/14 seasons.
At the end of the latter campaign, he had secured greater prize money and winner totals that his three closest pursuers combined, with his powerhouse owners Rich Ricci, Gigginstown House and Graham Wylie supplying only just over half the winners he saddled.
While Mullins’s performance has continued to steadily increase in the seasons that followed, particularly in terms of the success he has had in Great Britain, what has happened in the bigger picture of the Irish National Hunt training ranks is that Gordon Elliott has very much picked up the chase of Mullins.
Having saddled 56 winners in Ireland in the aforementioned 2013/14 campaign, Elliott sent out 123 winners last season, securing more than double the number of winners and prize money of the third-placed trainer Henry de Bromhead.
While there has yet to be any indication given as to where the 60 Gigginstown House horses removed from Mullins will be sent to, a betting man would price up Gordon Elliott as the favourite to be the main beneficiary.
Elliott has a long-standing relationship with Gigginstown and indeed has had the most Gigginstown horses of any trainer for a number of years now.
A significant boost to Elliott’s firepower coinciding with a reduction in Mullins’s has the potential to draw them significantly closer together in the race for Champion National Hunt Trainer in Ireland.
Indeed, while Elliott is unlikely to get all of the Gigginstown horses from Mullins, it is very interesting indeed to note that if one was to transfer all of the wins and prize money accumulated by Gigginstown-owned horses for Mullins in Ireland in 2015/16 over to Elliott during that campaign, Elliott would have been crowned Champion Trainer with 32 winners and over €300,000 more than Mullins.
While such comparisons are obviously not as black and white as that, it illustrates how much of a game changer this news has the potential to be in Ireland.
Time will disclose whether this huge news represents a watershed moment in the National Hunt landscape or whether it is just a bump in the road for the Willie Mullins juggernaut that will continue to rule the scene as he has for many years now.
However, while Mullins focused an unusual amount of attention on the British trainer’s championship at the backend of last season, he might just have an even tougher battle on his hands on the domestic front in 2016/17.
One thing for certain is that as interesting as it already was, Irish National Hunt racing just got much more interesting.
The National Hunt racing world was stunned on Wednesday morning by the news that Champion Owner Gigginstown House Stud were removing 60 horses of their horses from the care of Champion Trainer Willie Mullins.
It represents the highest-profile owner-trainer split in many years in Irish racing and has the potential to fundamentally alter the entire balance of the National Hunt racing world.
The reason given for the split by Willie Mullins is that his decision to raise his training fees, reportedly for the first time in 10 years, did not go down well with Gigginstown and this was why they had decided to take their horses away from him.
It will seem remarkable to many that such a powerful and successful partnership could come to an end based on something as seemingly innocuous as a rise in training fees, but this isn’t the first time that Willie Mullins and Gigginstown House have allegedly had issues with regard to training fees.
It has been a persistent rumour in Irish racing circles that Gigginstown essentially name their own fixed price that they are willing to pay all of their trainers to train their horses. The vast majority of trainers are willing to play ball with this out-of-the-ordinary policy, such is the quality of horse that Gigginstown send in their direction.
However, it is worth noting that it wasn’t until the 2010/11 season that Gigginstown, who at that stage had grown to an operation with over 100 horses in training with over 20 trainers and had secured their first Champion Owner title the previous season, sent a horse to the Champion Trainer Willie Mullins.
Industry chatter suggested that the reason why they had not combined to that point was that Mullins had been unwilling to train horses for the amount Gigginstown were willing to pay him.
Whether it was Mullins or Gigginstown that blinked first in this regard is not a matter of public record, but from numerically small beginnings with Sir Des Champs, Samain and Lovethehigherlaw that season, the Mullins/Gigginstown relationship has grown season-on-season ever since to the point where the team combined for 50 winners in the last campaign.
So, what will this seismic split mean for National Hunt racing?
The immediate reaction of many racing enthusiasts on social media was that while it was sad to see such a successful relationship come to an end, the removal of the Gigginstown talent from Mullins’s hands could well serve to increase competitiveness in a National Hunt scene that some perceive as being dominated by Mullins to an unhealthy degree.
One thing for sure is that while losing 60 such high-quality horses would be a hammer blow to any other National Hunt trainer in the game, such is the strength and depth of his team of owners and horses, Willie Mullins is better equipped than anyone to absorb such a blow and still come out on top.
To quantify the size of the blow that Mullins will be taking, the statistics reveal that Gigginstown-owned horses provided approximately 25% of the winners and prize money secured by Mullins-trained horses in Ireland and just under 15% of the prize money that Mullins-trained horses earned in Great Britain during the 2015/16 season.
However, while it is a blow that Mullins is well equipped to take, it is one that could be a game changer in Ireland depending on where the horses are sent. In statistical terms, Mullins was in his most dominant position in Irish National Hunt racing during the 2012/13 and 2013/14 seasons.
At the end of the latter campaign, he had secured greater prize money and winner totals that his three closest pursuers combined, with his powerhouse owners Rich Ricci, Gigginstown House and Graham Wylie supplying only just over half the winners he saddled.
While Mullins’s performance has continued to steadily increase in the seasons that followed, particularly in terms of the success he has had in Great Britain, what has happened in the bigger picture of the Irish National Hunt training ranks is that Gordon Elliott has very much picked up the chase of Mullins.
Having saddled 56 winners in Ireland in the aforementioned 2013/14 campaign, Elliott sent out 123 winners last season, securing more than double the number of winners and prize money of the third-placed trainer Henry de Bromhead.
While there has yet to be any indication given as to where the 60 Gigginstown House horses removed from Mullins will be sent to, a betting man would price up Gordon Elliott as the favourite to be the main beneficiary.
Elliott has a long-standing relationship with Gigginstown and indeed has had the most Gigginstown horses of any trainer for a number of years now.
A significant boost to Elliott’s firepower coinciding with a reduction in Mullins’s has the potential to draw them significantly closer together in the race for Champion National Hunt Trainer in Ireland.
Indeed, while Elliott is unlikely to get all of the Gigginstown horses from Mullins, it is very interesting indeed to note that if one was to transfer all of the wins and prize money accumulated by Gigginstown-owned horses for Mullins in Ireland in 2015/16 over to Elliott during that campaign, Elliott would have been crowned Champion Trainer with 32 winners and over €300,000 more than Mullins.
While such comparisons are obviously not as black and white as that, it illustrates how much of a game changer this news has the potential to be in Ireland.
Time will disclose whether this huge news represents a watershed moment in the National Hunt landscape or whether it is just a bump in the road for the Willie Mullins juggernaut that will continue to rule the scene as he has for many years now.
However, while Mullins focused an unusual amount of attention on the British trainer’s championship at the backend of last season, he might just have an even tougher battle on his hands on the domestic front in 2016/17.
One thing for certain is that as interesting as it already was, Irish National Hunt racing just got much more interesting.
Diamond Geezer
Gone But Not Forgotten
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- May 2, 2003
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- 13,884
Gigginstown statement
The decision to remove the horses from Mullins was taken "with condsiderable regret", according to a statement Gigginstown issued to RTÉ Sport.
It read: "As Gigginstown House Stud has been unable to reach agreement with Willie Mullins on an increase in training fees, we have agreed - with considerable regret - to move the Gigginstown horses to alternative trainers for the coming 2016-17 season.
"Gigginstown wishes to sincerely thank Willie and all the team at Closutton for the many Grade 1 races we have won together over the past seven years."
The chance of a reunion between the two parties down the line was not ruled out, as the statement added: "We hope that an agreement can be reached at some time in the future which will allow Willie to resume buying and training more graded winners for us."
The decision to remove the horses from Mullins was taken "with condsiderable regret", according to a statement Gigginstown issued to RTÉ Sport.
It read: "As Gigginstown House Stud has been unable to reach agreement with Willie Mullins on an increase in training fees, we have agreed - with considerable regret - to move the Gigginstown horses to alternative trainers for the coming 2016-17 season.
"Gigginstown wishes to sincerely thank Willie and all the team at Closutton for the many Grade 1 races we have won together over the past seven years."
The chance of a reunion between the two parties down the line was not ruled out, as the statement added: "We hope that an agreement can be reached at some time in the future which will allow Willie to resume buying and training more graded winners for us."
It has shades of the Keane/McCarthy spat in Saipan.
Did Giggi pull the horses, or were Giggi playing hard ball as regards fee's and Willie told them to take them out of the stable.
It seems a grey area. Not that it matters hugely. I can't see either party backing down from their relative positions.
Interesting to see where this takes us......
I doubt the 60 boxes in Mullins will remain empty for long.
Did Giggi pull the horses, or were Giggi playing hard ball as regards fee's and Willie told them to take them out of the stable.
It seems a grey area. Not that it matters hugely. I can't see either party backing down from their relative positions.
Interesting to see where this takes us......
I doubt the 60 boxes in Mullins will remain empty for long.
Diamond Geezer
Gone But Not Forgotten
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Few more titbits, Joseph and Noel to get some possibly
http://www.theirishfield.ie/giggins...er-training-fees-227755/#.V-vcmsqj8ko.twitter
http://www.theirishfield.ie/giggins...er-training-fees-227755/#.V-vcmsqj8ko.twitter
Diamond Geezer
Gone But Not Forgotten
- Joined
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- Messages
- 13,884
Don Poli RUMOURED to have gone to De Bromhead
Apples jade RUMOURED to have gone to Gordon Elliot
Apples jade RUMOURED to have gone to Gordon Elliot
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Surely no trainer could take 60 horses at short notice, least of all Gordon Elliott, whose yard must be full. Mixed in with the good ones are a lot of very mediocre ones, even among the recent recruits. I'd imagine he might be wishing he could get rid of some of them right now.
That's fair comment Grey and short of Apple's Jade and possibly Don Poli (who appeared exposed last season) I'm struggling to think of any he'd really care about losing.
But the fact is he's possibly burnt his bridge with Giggi now and as he's never been a key player in JP's plans his fate would appear to rest largely in the hands of Ricci.
But the fact is he's possibly burnt his bridge with Giggi now and as he's never been a key player in JP's plans his fate would appear to rest largely in the hands of Ricci.
granger
Senior Jockey
Sorry Lee, I was referring to the quality of horse already in Elliott's yard rather than the Giggy horses about to leave the Mullins yard. Elliott still gives refuge to a lot of clapped out flat horses that will be lucky to ever win anything beyond a low grade race or two over jumps.
I think there are plenty of good horses among the 60 that are looking for new homes.
I think there are plenty of good horses among the 60 that are looking for new homes.