Godolphin

I dont understand how BinSuroor can be down as the trainer of all those horses in America as well...how often does he actually oversea their training?
 
I think the key to the wins in the US is how little time they spend with Bin Suroor.

All the US horses at the min are based at Keeneland (including Gayego and Two Step Salsa who both miss the Met Mile).
 
Gamla Stan; as he was riding for them then I don't think a timescale is that relevant when I think his riding cost them a win. They haven't exactly been blazing a trail for some time now, but as I said I am at work unfortunately. It's not just about group races; it's a lot of his riding, whether it be a conditions, nursery or handicap race I don't like about him. It's not just about the high profile rides. I would say that it is difficult to say absolutely that they haven't suffered by having him as stable jockey, as apart from a couple of periods off with injuries, no one else has had a sustained run of being first choice jockey.

Galileo; I didn't mean that he was the only reason; I said it would be a good place to start. I totally agree with you about sending the horses to Dubai, or if they are going to continue with that, bring them back earlier.
They do buy Coolmore bred horses; not at the sales but by acquisitions and buying it from other owners as 2/3 year olds, so why don't they buy at the sales? It seems a strange kind of 'boycott' to me because in actuality it isn't.
As soon as a 2 year old is deemed to have a modicum of talent they move them for their three year career. Does it not occur to them that possibly a large part of the reason the horse had some success is because of the trainer they have had their 2 year old career with? If I was Mark Johnston for one, I would privately spit feathers at the end of a flat season knowing I am going to lose certain horses.
 
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Galileo said:
I dont understand how BinSuroor can be down as the trainer of all those horses in America as well...how often does he actually oversea their training?
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Have wondered that a few times myself. Does seem to be the way a few of the larger American trainers operate though. The likes of Pletcher, Frankel and Mott etc. seem to have separate strings based in different parts of the country (usually New York and California/Kentucky during the summer). Must be a huge reliance on staff.

Apparently the Godolphin sales boycott of Coolmore stallions is primarily the result of a dispute over the resale of a yearling at Keeneland a few years back BTW.
 
Interesting how McLaughlin and Albertrani (both ex-Godolphin employee's) have done well with Sheikh Mo (and family) horses since leaving the operation - Bernardini and Invasor have both won big races/classics for him.
 
Galileo said:
Change the jockey tomorrow and it is not going have a huge turn around form. Buy Coolmore horses, stop sending the horses to Dubai, leave horses after purchase with their trainer to ensure no loss of form but run them under the Godolphin ownership banner, cut down in numbers etc...
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Do you not think John Ferguson has a lot to answer for?? He clearly is not as good at picking them out as the Coolmore team. Godolphin have made loads of mistakes over the year and it is clear they don't have a real strategy and tend to change depending on the winds.....winter in Dubai, Evry experience, trying to win the Kentuckey Derby, trying to win the Melbourne Cup, trying to beat Coolmore at the breeding game. It just seems to me that Sheikh Mo is all over the place and when he takes a fancy to something, the world has to move for him. If he was running it as a business, it would be sunk.....as bit like Dubai is heading!
 
I think Ferguson probably has a lot of people/establishments reporting directly to him but how much decision making is actually down to him on the buying/breeding side, I am not sure how much autonomy he would have? I agree it seems to be a scatter gun approach, and the organisation seems far too large for one or two individuals at the very top to be able to control/decision make over it, especially given the Sheikh's other responsibilities. I do think a lot of the lack of success ultimately comes back to their lack of at least one 'superstar' stallion such as a Saddler's Wells, some of whose sons appear to be very decent stallions in their own right and their sometimes insular approach to their stallion books.
 
Putting Fabre in control of a significant number of the 2yo's is surely the shrewdest decision they have made in a while.
 
Godolphin is a vanity project . If the winters in Dubai once gave them an advantage that has long since gone .

It would be far too bitter a pill to swallow to admit that it would be better to leave these horses with top class trainers like Fabre .

Copperbeech seems to join a long line of horses that have gone into reverse with Godolphin
 
I think there are quite a few issues that are contributing to Godolphin's current decline, most of which have already been raised -earlier in the thread. However, I have to agree that Dettori's attitude when riding horses that he think's have no chance, he tends to 'give up' on them during a race. IMHO if he doesn't think he's going to win he stops trying - I thought the aim was always to get the best possible placing? I certainly wouldn't have him riding any horse of mine. Or even my dead dog. If I had a dead dog.
 
Oh, Dettori gives up three furlongs out if the horse isn't going to win, most def. Ask Songsheet! She bred a doughty sprint mare called ANGEL SPRINTS, who did very well under the now-retired Mad Alan Daly. She appeared at Goodwood one day and was ridden by Signore Dettori who, being overtaken for the lead, let the horse peter out and lose even third place, I think (without referring to the RP stats). No a flick o' the whip, not really even hands and heels. It's not an attitude that does racing much credit, and yet he amazingly seems to never get hauled before the Beak for a dressing down, let alone a fine or a few days' holiday.

There's possibly another issue surrounding God: as evry skoolboy kno, Dubai is rather seriously in debt at the moment. Abu Dhabi, its much more serious-minded and far less-frivolous neighbour, is offering it some long-term loan deals, but, like any good Arab souk, not without some back-scratching bargaining. This is thought to include Abu Dhabi getting at Dubai's airline business and some of its tourist industry. There are rumours that the famous Palm Island is sinking into the Gulf, too, which makes the prospect of living in the overpriced condos rather disturbing, and the prospect of people queuing up to buy them very remote. Even the Russian billionaires who toyed with business in the emirates have been losing interest, and many building projects now stand idle, with Indian Airlines repatriating thousands of labourers back to the mother country. There may be less extravagant investment in luxury goods, i.e. racehorses, permitted if Abu Dhabi's stern gaze is turning onto what it may consider to be ill-advised displays of wealth. I don't say that that's gospel, but it wouldn't surprise me to see a general toning-down of operations, while finances are regrouped, anyway.
 
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krizon said:
Oh, Dettori gives up three furlongs out if the horse isn't going to win, most def. Ask Songsheet! She bred a doughty sprint mare called ANGEL SPRINTS, who did very well under the now-retired Mad Alan Daly. She appeared at Goodwood one day and was ridden by Signore Dettori who, being overtaken for the lead, let the horse peter out and lose even third place, I think (without referring to the RP stats). No a flick o' the whip, not really even hands and heels. It's not an attitude that does racing much credit, and yet he amazingly seems to never get hauled before the Beak for a dressing down, let alone a fine or a few days' holiday.
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Taking an impartial (and accurate) view, Dettori rode that horse twice, winning once, and coming third on the other occasion. In the race he came third, the RP comments were:

overall leader near side, headed entering final furlong, no extra
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So, despite using this race as an example of how Dettori stops riding 3 furlongs out, he in fact was overtaken in the final furlong and was on a horse who wasn't finding anymore.

Lets not let the truth get in the way of a friend's horse not being good enough on a particular day, eh?

Also, if his ride was so poor, why was he asked to ride the same horse in his very next race (which he won on)??

:rolleyes:
 
krizon said:
Oh, Dettori gives up three furlongs out if the horse isn't going to win, most def. Ask Songsheet! She bred a doughty sprint mare called ANGEL SPRINTS, who did very well under the now-retired Mad Alan Daly. She appeared at Goodwood one day and was ridden by Signore Dettori who, being overtaken for the lead, let the horse peter out and lose even third place, I think (without referring to the RP stats). No a flick o' the whip, not really even hands and heels. It's not an attitude that does racing much credit, and yet he amazingly seems to never get hauled before the Beak for a dressing down, let alone a fine or a few days' holiday.

There's possibly another issue surrounding God: as evry skoolboy kno, Dubai is rather seriously in debt at the moment. Abu Dhabi, its much more serious-minded and far less-frivolous neighbour, is offering it some long-term loan deals, but, like any good Arab souk, not without some back-scratching bargaining. This is thought to include Abu Dhabi getting at Dubai's airline business and some of its tourist industry. There are rumours that the famous Palm Island is sinking into the Gulf, too, which makes the prospect of living in the overpriced condos rather disturbing, and the prospect of people queuing up to buy them very remote. Even the Russian billionaires who toyed with business in the emirates have been losing interest, and many building projects now stand idle, with Indian Airlines repatriating thousands of labourers back to the mother country. There may be less extravagant investment in luxury goods, i.e. racehorses, permitted if Abu Dhabi's stern gaze is turning onto what it may consider to be ill-advised displays of wealth. I don't say that that's gospel, but it wouldn't surprise me to see a general toning-down of operations, while finances are regrouped, anyway.
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Taking the first point into account, if he's giving up on horses which he thinks he can't win on then I don't think he's therefore a contributing factor to Godolphin's shite performances in recent years. They should be providing him horses which are good enough to win, and they haven't.

The second point surrounding the UAE is fascinating and is probably something for the Everything Else forum rather than this side but I visited Dubai in March for the World Cup and I was staggered by the extent of extravagance there. I just couldn't comprehend how demand would meet supply for the amount of building work going on.
 
Ted Durcan is the one Godolphin want when giving a horse easy time - here is his group race record;

Group 1,2,3 11-172 6% -97.34
 
trackside528 said:
Putting Fabre in control of a significant number of the 2yo's is surely the shrewdest decision they have made in a while.
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If you ask Schlenderhans Stud- and racing manager over here, it isnt. While admittingly Schlenderhan does breed rather old-fashioned, late-developing horses (to run in their colours and Baron Ullmanns, Shirocco, Manduro etc.) , he tells the world over here that their record with 2-year-olds has never been worse than in the year Fabre was looking after them. Schlenderhan now only sends 3-year-olds over.

in general you are right though. the shrewdest move would be to spread the horses to good trainers and let them judge the horses, not his massive bunch of advisers . Seeing Hamdan´s colours doing so well gives me great satisfaction.
 
I think when discussing Dettori and the impact he has had on races, you could form a much, much longer list with horses he won on he had no right to.

Shamardal in the Prix du jockey club ... stole it from the front on a horse with suspect stamina against the Hurricane run
Lawman in the Prix du jockey club
Campanologist last year in the King Edward
Folk Opera at least once last year - the race in France sticks out
Ramonti's Group 1s were often down to the jockey
Firebreak in Hong Kong
Librettist in France
Ouija Board in the Nassau
& many more

There is simply no better judge of pace around.
 
cannot for one minute think that people really think dettori is to blame in any way. very good jockey etc. imo. what I do think though as well is that he clearly lost his "attitude" a bit and isnt as driven as he used to be. last year after the 2000 guineas i did follow him on whateverhorsehewason to the unsaddle-bit; i mean the horse did set off as one of the favs, finished down the field and all he had to tell was some jokes. he was, though, very very pissed off after losing the lockinge.
 
And, wouldn't most of Durcan's rides in Group 1's for Godolphin have been on a pacemaker?
 
I don't blame him not being driven to ride in any old dross. He's achieved nearly everything, obviously has more than enough money and is settled down with a family. Not surprised he doesn't ride at many meetings a week anymore, I wouldn't if I was in his shoes.

Spot on with those examples Hamm, could list several more, particularly in valuable handicaps.
 
Hamm said:
I think when discussing Dettori and the impact he has had on races, you could form a much, much longer list with horses he won on he had no right to.

Shamardal in the Prix du jockey club ... stole it from the front on a horse with suspect stamina against the Hurricane run
Lawman in the Prix du jockey club
Campanologist last year in the King Edward
Folk Opera at least once last year - the race in France sticks out
Ramonti's Group 1s were often down to the jockey
Firebreak in Hong Kong
Librettist in France
Ouija Board in the Nassau
& many more

There is simply no better judge of pace around.
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So you've already said that in your opinion he is the best judge of pace riding at the moment. I don't agree with you. This exact same topic was on another thread recently where I stated I believed Philip Robinson is by far, in my opinion, the best tactical judge of pace and being able to ride from the front in a race riding at the moment. At the same time, I think Seb Sanders is far and away the best jockey for riding in a five or six furlong sprint race, but not over say a mile and a half. I don't watch much racing on television if at all anymore, but I know, from years of experience that I would not allow Dettori to ride anything of mine. When I do see him 'in the flesh' he just reiterates the point 99% of the time. That is my opinion and I am entitled to state it without being rubbished. I am clearly not the only one who thinks so either. If you would let him ride your horse, great for you. There's no point putting up any examples of anything as being set in the opinion, a list of horses names will change nothing. If I listed horses where I believe he gave them a crap ride or no ride at all, you will come up with another 5 where you think they wouldn't have won without him.
Ouija Board for one is not a Godolphin horse and the subject of Dettori was raised in the context of what they could do to help change things around.
 
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