Godolphin

Of course you are entitled to your opinion without being rubbished but you've yet to actually state any actual flaws in Dettori's riding and only provided 2 examples of bad rides which were over 7 years ago.

The races Hamm lists are spot on, Dettori won the races. I think the connections of the horses are irrelevant when it comes to debating his actual riding ability.

Edit - Agree with Robinson by the way, he's up there with Dettori regarding pace and always seems to know where the best ground is.
 
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Exactly so why would Dettori be on a horse that's not trying, horse was not good enough there is nothing sinister.

Oh yeah I bet they laid it on betfair even with their trillions, must of made couple grand
 
I just typed what is the point in typing lists of names when you believe one thing and I believe another. It is his attitude - if thinks they can't win or are just not good enough, that's the attitude he goes out with. He doesn't go for the best position 'cos his mind set is that there is no point trying. If he is joking around on the horsewalk on the way out, absolute guarantee that his whole heart isn't in it. That doesn't mean other jockeys don't feel the same way, but he is a high profile 'personality' riding for a high profile operation, is paid a massive amount of money, and should be 100% focused every time he goes out to represent them, and the punters money which is riding on him as he is 'good old Frankie'.

He rode a two year old for a trainer which was owned by Sheikh M who was very highly thought of, and extremely well bred. He had his own opinion of it. He gave it an awful lot to do, but to the animal's credit he made up a lot in the closing stages and F was going hell for leather on him, but he finished second. When he got off he said to the trainer, 'oh he was much better than I thought'. The trainer went ballistic and called him all the names under the sun and then some more, as he believed it was their best 2 year old and a very strong Guineas hope for the next year and he wanted him to win his opening race, and told F in no uncertain terms that he had given him far too much to do and then been hard on him when he shouldn't have needed to.

If you really want a more recent example: Shaweel in France - absolutely appalling ride. No doubt the opinion will be that the horse wasn't good enough, but go back and watch it if you must. Any other jockey would have been slated left, right and centre for that race. It was shocking.
 
G-G said:
So you've already said that in your opinion he is the best judge of pace riding at the moment. I don't agree with you. This exact same topic was on another thread recently where I stated I believed Philip Robinson is by far, in my opinion, the best tactical judge of pace and being able to ride from the front in a race riding at the moment. At the same time, I think Seb Sanders is far and away the best jockey for riding in a five or six furlong sprint race, but not over say a mile and a half. I don't watch much racing on television if at all anymore, but I know, from years of experience that I would not allow Dettori to ride anything of mine. When I do see him 'in the flesh' he just reiterates the point 99% of the time. That is my opinion and I am entitled to state it without being rubbished. I am clearly not the only one who thinks so either. If you would let him ride your horse, great for you. There's no point putting up any examples of anything as being set in the opinion, a list of horses names will change nothing. If I listed horses where I believe he gave them a crap ride or no ride at all, you will come up with another 5 where you think they wouldn't have won without him.
Ouija Board for one is not a Godolphin horse and the subject of Dettori was raised in the context of what they could do to help change things around.
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You are appearing very irrational, and there's not much point in me continuing the debate except to say no-one rubbished your opinion, I engaged in your point by offering reasons behind what I thought, only for you to fail to do the same.
 
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P Robinson could be better than Dettori doing crosswords, becuase riding horses the italian is miles ahead.
 
If you want recent examples of brilliant Dettori rides; Moonquake and Yamal. Shaweel wouldn't have placed in the French Guineas in a month of Sundays.

If he's riding horses he doesn't think are good enough, then they probably aren't, he's a pretty experienced rider who will know a good 'un when he sits on one. I therefore don't buy into the idea that his 'attitude' has cost Godolphin in any way.

If it's only his attitude that's a problem then I'd take that as his employer as a trainer, his actual riding skills are first class as we've illustrated.
 
What did he do wrong on Shaweel exactly?

It seems to me you are confusing your dislike of Frankie as a person to his skills as a jockey.
 
sunybay said:
P Robinson could be better than Dettori doing crosswords, becuase riding horses the italian is miles ahead.
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Totally agree, Dettori is the best rider in last 10 years its just now Moore is taking his crown but dont deter from his riding ability and history in this sport

Hamm said:
What did he do wrong on Shaweel exactly?

It seems to me you are confusing your dislike of Frankie as a person to his skills as a jockey.
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Totally agree, I think this guy has a dislike for Frankie and Italians
 
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Hamm you made up your mind three days ago or many moons before that so whatever.

Italianstallion - what nationality he is has nothing to do with it and where did I mention his nationality at all for you to decide that?
 
Gamla Stan said:
Of course you are entitled to your opinion without being rubbished but you've yet to actually state any actual flaws in Dettori's riding and only provided 2 examples of bad rides which were over 7 years ago.

The races Hamm lists are spot on, Dettori won the races. I think the connections of the horses are irrelevant when it comes to debating his actual riding ability.

Edit - Agree with Robinson by the way, he's up there with Dettori regarding pace and always seems to know where the best ground is.
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He rode a stinker on dubawi!!!
 
Agree with Dubawi, but that's the only top level cock up I can think of in recent memory. The other top jockeys will have had plenty more.

He didn't give Authorized a stinker, Authorized was an over rated animal who got the thrashing he had coming and finished tailed off.
 
Playing devils advocate, I think his biggest problem is his attitude which comes down to the fact he's been there and done that and also the fact godolphin are producing shite. I feel if godolphin actually got a string of horses together he was actually excited to ride it would motivate him but he is the same as anyone that is good at their job but being forced to do menial tasks you get bored.
I ask when was the last time you actaully saw him excited about riding a horse??? Authorized maybe was the last one I can think of.
 
Did he not win on the first St Ledger winner for one of the greatest trainers in our game Sir Michael Stoute?

How many tried before him?
 
Gamla Stan said:
Agree with Dubawi, but that's the only top level cock up I can think of in recent memory. The other top jockeys will have had plenty more.

He didn't give Authorized a stinker, Authorized was an over rated animal who got the thrashing he had coming and finished tailed off.
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I would disagree with that he was told to ride authorized up with the pace and totally disregarded it dropped him out the back with far too much ground to make up. It was a terrible ride imo. Im not sure how you can say he got what was coming as didnt Dylan Thomas win that race and im pretty sure Authorized had him beat earlier in the season.
 
He's just average guys seriously.

Major wins

Great Britain

* 1,000 Guineas - (2) - Cape Verdi (1998), Kazzia (2002)
* 2,000 Guineas - (2) - Mark of Esteem (1996), Island Sands (1999)
* Ascot Gold Cup - (4) - Drum Taps (1992 & 1993), Kayf Tara (1998), Papineau (2004)
* Cheveley Park Stakes - (2) - Regal Rose (2000), Carry on Katie (2003)
* Coronation Cup - (4) - Swain (1996), Singspiel (1997), Daylami (1999), Mutafaweq (2001)
* Epsom Derby - (1) - Authorized (2007)
* Eclipse Stakes - (2) - Daylami (1998), Refuse to Bend (2004)
* Falmouth Stakes - (1) - Nahoodh (2008)
* Fillies' Mile - (4) - Shamshir (1990), Glorosia (1997), Teggiano (1999), Crystal Music (2000)
* Golden Jubilee Stakes - (1) - So Factual (1995)
* Haydock Sprint Cup - (1) - Diktat (1999)
* International Stakes - (5) - Halling (1996), Singspiel (1997), Sakhee (2001), Sulamani (2004), Authorized (2007)
* King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes - (4) - Lammtarra (1995), Swain (1998), Daylami (1999), Doyen (2004)
* Lockinge Stakes - (3) - Emperor Jones (1994), Aljabr (2000), Creachadoir (2008)
* Middle Park Stakes - (3) - Bahamian Bounty (1996), Lujain (1998), Dutch Art (2006)
* Nassau Stakes - (2) - Lailani (2001), Ouija Board (2006)
* Nunthorpe Stakes - (3) - Lochsong (1993), So Factual (1995), Lochangel (1998)
* Oaks - (3) - Balanchine (1994), Moonshell (1995), Kazzia (2002)
* Prince of Wales's Stakes - (2) - Fantastic Light (2001), Grandera (2002)
* Queen Anne Stakes - (6) - Markofdistinction (1990), Allied Forces (1997), Intikhab (1998), Dubai Destination (2003), Refuse to Bend (2004), Ramonti (2007)
* Queen Elizabeth II Stakes - (4) - Markofdistinction (1990), Mark of Esteem (1996), Dubai Millennium (1999), Ramonti (2007)
* Racing Post Trophy - (1) - Authorized (2006)
* St. James's Palace Stakes - (1) - Starborough (1997)
* St. Leger - (5) - Classic Cliché (1995), Shantou (1996), Scorpion (2005), Sixties Icon (2006), Conduit (2008)
* Sun Chariot Stakes - (1) - Red Slippers (1992)
* Sussex Stakes - (4) - Second Set (1991), Aljabr (1999), Noverre (2001), Ramonti (2007)
* Yorkshire Oaks - (1) - Only Royale (1994)

Canada

* Canadian International Stakes - (2) - Mutafaweq (2000), Sulamani (2004)
* E. P. Taylor Stakes - (1) - Folk Opera (2008)

France

* Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud - (1) - Alkaased (2005)
* Poule d'Essai des Poulains - (3) - Vettori (1995), Bachir (2000), Shamardal (2005)
* Prix de l'Abbaye de Longchamp - (3) - Lochsong (1993 & 1994), Var (2004)
* Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe - (3) - Lammtarra (1995), Sakhee (2001), Marienbard (2002)
* Prix du Cadran - (1) - Sergeant Cecil (2006)
* Prix de Diane - (1) - West Wind (2007)
* Prix de la Forêt - (1) - Caradak (2006)
* Prix Ganay - (1) - Pelder (1995)
* Prix d'Ispahan - (2) - Halling (1996), Best of the Bests (2002)
* Prix Jacques Le Marois - (3) - Dubai Millennium (1999), Muhtathir (2000), Librettist (2006)
* Prix Jean-Luc Lagardère - (1) - Rio de la Plata (2007)
* Prix Jean Prat - (3) - Torrential (1995), Starborough (1997), Almutawakel (1998)
* Prix du Jockey Club - (3) - Polytain (1992), Shamardal (2005), Lawman (2007)
* Prix Lupin - (1) - Flemensfirth (1995)
* Prix Marcel Boussac - (2) - Ryafan (1996), Sulk (2001)
* Prix Maurice de Gheest - (1) - Diktat (1999)
* Prix Morny - (1) - Bahamian Bounty (1996)
* Prix du Moulin de Longchamp - (2) - Slickly (2001), Librettist (2006)
* Prix de la Salamandre - (2) - Lord of Men (1995), Aljabr (1998)
* Prix Vermeille - (1) - Mezzo Soprano (2003)

Germany

* Bayerisches Zuchtrennen - (2) - Germany (1995), Kutub (2001)
* Deutsches Derby - (1) - Temporal (1991)
* Deutschland-Preis - (2) - Luso (1997), Marienbard (2002)
* Grosser Preis von Baden - (3) - Germany (1995), Marienbard (2002), Mamool (2003)
* Preis von Europa - (2) - Kutub (2001), Mamool (2003)

Hong Kong

* Centenary Sprint Cup - (1) - Firebolt (2002)
* Hong Kong Cup - (3) - Fantastic Light (2000), Falbrav (2003), Ramonti (2007)
* Hong Kong Mile - (1) - Firebreak (2004)
* Hong Kong Vase - (1) - Luso (1996)
* Queen Elizabeth II Cup - (1) - Overbury (1996)

Ireland

* Irish 2,000 Guineas - (2) - Bachir (2000), Dubawi (2005)
* Irish Champion Stakes - (4) - Swain (1998), Daylami (1999), Fantastic Light (2001), Grandera (2002)
* Irish Derby - (1) - Balanchine (1994)
* Irish Oaks - (2) - Lailani (2001), Vintage Tipple (2003)
* Irish St. Leger - (1) - Kayf Tara (1999)
* Matron Stakes - (1) - Independence (2001)
* National Stakes - (1) - Dubawi (2004)
* Phoenix Stakes - (1) - Pips Pride (1992)
* Pretty Polly Stakes - (1) - Del Deya (1994)
* Tattersalls Gold Cup - (2) - Daylami (1998), Fantastic Light (2001)

Italy

* Derby Italiano - (2) - Mukhalif (1999), Mastery (2009)
* Gran Criterium - (1) - Kirklees (2006)
* Gran Premio del Jockey Club - (4) - Misil (1993), Shantou (1996), Kutub (2001), Cherry Mix (2005)
* Gran Premio d'Italia - (1) - Masad (1992)
* Gran Premio di Milano - (2) - Shantou (1997), Sudan (2007)
* Oaks d'Italia - (1) - Nicole Pharly (1997)
* Premio Roma - (4) - Legal Case (1990), Misil (1992), Flemensfirth (1996), Sunstrach (2002)
* Premio Vittorio di Capua - (4) - Muhtathir (1999), Slickly (2001 & 2002), Ancient World (2004)

Japan

* Japan Cup - (3) - Singspiel (1996), Falbrav (2002), Alkaased (2005)
* Japan Cup Dirt - (1) - Eagle Café (2002)

Singapore

* Singapore Gold Cup - (1) - Kutub (2002)
* Singapore Airlines International Cup - (1) - Grandera (2002)

United Arab Emirates

* Dubai Duty Free Stakes - (1) - Tamayaz (1997)
* Dubai Golden Shaheen - (1) - Kelly's Landing (2007)
* Dubai Sheema Classic - (2) - Stowaway (1998), Sulamani (2003)
* Dubai UAE Derby - (2) - Essence Of Dubai (2002), Discreet Cat (2006)
* Dubai World Cup - (3) - Dubai Millennium (2000), Moon Ballad (2003), Electrocutionist (2006)
* Godolphin Mile - (1) - Two Step Salsa (2009)

United States

* Beverly D. Stakes - (1) - Crimson Palace (2004)
* Breeders' Cup Classic - (1) - Raven's Pass (2008)
* Breeders' Cup Filly & Mare Turf - (1) - Ouija Board (2006)
* Breeders' Cup Juvenile - (1) - Wilko (2004)
* Breeders' Cup Juvenile Turf - (1) - Donativum (2008)
* Breeders' Cup Mile - (1) - Barathea (1994)
* Breeders' Cup Turf - (3) - Daylami (1999), Fantastic Light (2001), Red Rocks (2006)
 
ItalianStallion said:
Did he not win on the first St Ledger winner for one of the greatest trainers in our game Sir Michael Stoute?

How many tried before him?
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Yes and so what? You could argue that anyone could have ridden that horse as the horse was good enough to win it that year. That fact that Stoute had never won it before is irrelevant.
 
Check the honours list above friend, think we should close this thread now.

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beardo said:
Playing devils advocate, I think his biggest problem is his attitude which comes down to the fact he's been there and done that and also the fact godolphin are producing shite. I feel if godolphin actually got a string of horses together he was actually excited to ride it would motivate him but he is the same as anyone that is good at their job but being forced to do menial tasks you get bored.
I ask when was the last time you actaully saw him excited about riding a horse??? Authorized maybe was the last one I can think of.
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I reckon Raven's Pass might have got him a bit excited?

Donatavium and Conduit too.

Back to Authorized, he wouldn't have placed in the Arc no matter who had ridden him. Dylan Thomas was also a much better horse over 1m4f rather than the 1m2f of the International. The pace in that International was farcical as well. To blame Dettori is surely only the talk of someone who lost money on the horse in the race. He was tanking along turning for home in the Arc and just faded.
 
I dont think I said he is average just said I dont think he has the desire or motivation at the moment. Your list illustrates my point he's got the t-shirt, he's been there done that. Why would he be bothered when the dross coming through Godolphin is the way it is? If he was in Murtaghs shoes I think you would see a completely different demeanour and desire.
 
beardo said:
I dont think I said he is average just said I dont think he has the desire or motivation at the moment. Your list illustrates my point he's got the t-shirt, he's been there done that. Why would he be bothered when the dross coming through Godolphin is the way it is? If he was in Murtaghs shoes I think you would see a completely different demeanour and desire.
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Agree entirely with you there, I just can't believe other posters are questioning his riding skills and suggesting he's a negative for Godolphin. He'd never move to Ballydoyle due to the politics, his age and the fact he's settled down with what appears from the outside to be a lovely family.
 
Gamla Stan said:
I reckon Raven's Pass might have got him a bit excited?

Donatavium and Conduit too.

Back to Authorized, he wouldn't have placed in the Arc no matter who had ridden him. Dylan Thomas was also a much better horse over 1m4f rather than the 1m2f of the International. The pace in that International was farcical as well. To blame Dettori is surely only the talk of someone who lost money on the horse in the race. He was tanking along turning for home in the Arc and just faded.
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I would say have a look at the ratings if you believe he would never have placed in that arc. He ran well below his best that day and the tactics would not have helped.
It isnt pocket talk either I backed Getaway that day!!!
 
Gamla Stan said:
Agree entirely with you there, I just can't believe other posters are questioning his riding skills and suggesting he's a negative for Godolphin. He'd never move to Ballydoyle due to the politics, his age and the fact he's settled down with what appears from the outside to be a lovely family.
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Like I said I havent questioned his riding skills I just think his motivation has gone. I would be the same if I was in his shoes.
 
Not motivated? Frankies one of the brightest characters this game has ever seen he is full of energy and riding for the arabs you have to be motivated, it's a shame we got such a talented mute in Ryan Moore. I can't remember the last horse Frankie has eased up as he gives them everything
 
Italianstallion - would you drop the tone and I for one don't see what pictures of him jumping in a swimming pool have to do with his ability as a jockey or his attitudes to rides which was being discussed here?
You think he's God, I don't. There's no point putting up lists going back 17 years showing when he won a race. You want to bet on horse he rides, you go ahead.
By the way, how do you know I am not Italian to accuse me of being anti Intalian?
 
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