Gold Cup 2009 (was: Denman)

it seems that KS is more adaptable than Denman who is the Mill House one of the two:p

a hard slogger who needs a race to be a test of stamina.

the problem that Denman has is that the only time he beat KS with that injection of pace in last years GC...he fooked himself up ...maybe to beat KS again when both are right would be too much for Denman
 
Galileo said:
Huge run from Denman....but that is the REAL Kauto Star!!
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Exactly my feelings - I thought he might never quite attain the heights of his very best performances again but he looked absolutely stunning and Denman looked a transformed horse from Kempton in the paddock .

To think that KS gave his running last year you had to accpt he was only a head better than Neptune - I never could for one moment and it seems pretty clear that Exotic Dancer would indeed have beaten NC in the Lexus

The way KS shook Denman off with such ease was just majestic .

Euronymous said:
He wasn`t taken out of his comfort zone this year. The ground was more suitable as well.

Awful ride from McCoy on the third.
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Aaargh - KS was NEVER going last year - as Ruby said the day after - he has been faster ( e.g in the Tingle Creek ) yet he was never travelling at all .

As for AP - he gave Exotic the textbook drop right out ride from which the horse always produces his best performances , coming to the top of the hill he was five lengths off KS - he was well there till three out but like everything else could not live with KS up the hill - he ran his race alright . I hope they don't run him in the National , without McCoy I could see him making a nasty mistake - the 3 mile chase at aintree is surely his for the taking .

Gareth Flynn said:
Kauto goes to Down Royal, King George, Gold Cup next season in case anyone missed it.
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Ha ha - a Best Mate preparation :lol:

Gareth Flynn said:
Would it be mischievous to point out the similar distance between Denman and Neptune last year and this year? I'm sure it's just a coincidence...
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Nope not all - I suspect Denman did not achieve the heights of last year but was probably no more than 4-5lb down . If he had he would still have no better than second IMO.

trackside528 said:
The notion that any Gold Cup horse isn't ridden to win is laughable. However, he certainly wasn't ridden to have the best possible chance of beating Kauto Star (clearly by instruction). If he had been he would have pressed on swing out onto the second circuit - exactly as he did last year.
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He was ridden to have the best chance of beating KS in that he was ridden to achieve the best he could on the day - ridden any more aggressively he would have been pulled up or worse - he was exhausted on Friday and I was worried about him for a while on the horsewalk.

I can't see Denman beating a 100% fit well and fresh KS like on Friday again.
 
Ardross said:
Aaargh - KS was NEVER going last year - as Ruby said the day after - he has been faster ( e.g in the Tingle Creek ) yet he was never travelling at all .
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The Tingle Creek isn`t at Cheltenham - so is irrelevent. He wasn`t travelling because his jumping was put under pressure on softer ground than is ideal. Take Denman out of last year`s race and KS wins comfortably. It is absolute bollocks to say he wasn`t right.
 
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Hmmm, interesting interview on attheraces with P Barber just now. Sounded a little unsure of what he was saying, however did not rule out another run this season from Denman and said he thought he needed to go and water the ground at Cheltenham next year to give him a chance of beating KS.

Anyone else see it?

I was sure Nicholls said the horse had been put away for the season. Hard decision I guess as he seemed so well, however, what race would there be for him?
 
Euronymous said:
The Tingle Creek isn`t at Cheltenham - so is irrelevent. He wasn`t travelling because his jumping was put under pressure on softer ground than is ideal. Take Denman out of last year`s race and KS wins comfortably. It is absolute bollocks to say he wasn`t right.
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I disagree - when does scraping home by a head from NC constitute comfortably- or suggest that he was in form . I don't see that the fact it was at Cheltenham has anything to do with KS's jumping .

As I see it NC holds down last year's GC - something I believed at the time and still do .
 
Ardross said:
I disagree - when does scraping home by a head from NC constitute comfortably- or suggest that he was in form
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He only scraped by NC because Denman put his jumping under pressure. Take the tank out of the race like I suggested and his jumping isn`t put under examination - and he wins the race much like he did this year.
 
Euronymous said:
He only scraped by NC because Denman put his jumping under pressure. Take the tank out of the race like I suggested and his jumping isn`t put under examination - and he wins the race much like he did this year.
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That seems to me exactly right and the long and the short of it. Denman didn't allow Kauto the luxury of running inside his comfort zone last year and Denman was unable to run to the same level as last year this year.

I'd bet everything I own that Kauto will never finish in front of Denman at Cheltenham ever again.
 
Euronymous said:
He only scraped by NC because Denman put his jumping under pressure. Take the tank out of the race like I suggested and his jumping isn`t put under examination - and he wins the race much like he did this year.
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Except Kauto Star was making mistakes at Cheltenham when Neptune Collonges lead last year....or he certainly was not as fluent as he was this year when the same horse lead.

If Denman was not in the field this year Steve what would you have opposed Kauto with?
 
Galileo said:
Except Kauto Star was making mistakes at Cheltenham when Neptune Collonges lead last year....or he certainly was not as fluent as he was this year when the same horse lead.
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The same horse did lead but didn`t set as strong a gallop, probably because he wasn`t as suited to the ground this year.
 
Euronymous said:
The same horse did lead but didn`t set as strong a gallop, probably because he wasn`t as suited to the ground this year.
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A stronger gallop on that sort of ground would not have bother Kauto...in soft, tacky ground perhaps...but really you are relying on the elements to beat Kauto rather than the opposition.

Can anyone seriously imagine any other leading staying Grade 1 chase where anything could beat an on song Kauto Star? King George..no chance, Lexus Chase most unlikely....Haydock possibly.... I suppose it could be possible that an on song Denman on soft ground could wear Kauto Star's class down but over 3 miles plus...but he cannot be considered a superior beast to KS when KS can beat him over 3 miles plus on decent ground and would slaughter him from any trip/ground from 2 miles up to 3.
 
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Gareth Flynn said:
I suspect John Hales might not be too happy about the pace - he was saying beforehand he wanted NC to go on and really turn up the heat. Don't think he was jumping well enough to be able to though.
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Seems Mr Hales was most unhappy - unconfirmed reports that horseboxes turned up at Ditcheat and horses moved to Venetia?
 
Steve.
I think you should qualify your comment and refer to a 100% fit Denman.

My concern is that last year Denman ran not only beyond the comfort zone of KS but also his own. Whereas a human can rationalise going through the pain barrier who knows with a horse. If it hurt a great deal it would be normal for the animal to be reluctant when being tried again.
 
jinnyj said:
Seems Mr Hales was most unhappy - unconfirmed reports that horseboxes turned up at Ditcheat and horses moved to Venetia?
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Really !!! :confused:

He evidently was not pleased but Williams seemed to be getting after NC from a long way out . Is the implication that he thought NC was used as KS's pacemaker ?
 
Ardross said:
Really !!! :confused:

He evidently was not pleased but Williams seemed to be getting after NC from a long way out . Is the implication that he thought NC was used as KS's pacemaker ?
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I remember some on here suggested the same but for Denman last year!
 
Galileo said:
but he cannot be considered a superior beast to KS when KS can beat him over 3 miles plus on decent ground and would slaughter him from any trip/ground from 2 miles up to 3.
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I don`t think anyone has suggested Denman is a superior animal. Just that if he was on top of his game and had a bit of cut - he`d muller him in the Gold Cup next year.
 
Very soft ground possibly - a bit of cut not enough I reckon . It was grotty gluey ground last year .
 
I'm still amazed anyone could think Kauto was OK last year - he very clearly wasn't to anyone without preconcieved ideas. Good judges have said he looked awful in the paddock, he was hestitant form the start more or less, and was never going. Reports have told he wasn't happy either beofre or after the race. but some will never be convinced, although any good jusge only has to watch the race to see it - try watching last year's - then this year's straight after!


Meanwhile, sorry to mention this matter again but since so many have tried to pour scorn on my suggestion that Denman's treatment was a large part of his problem, perhaps these two knowledgeable comments will help them think again.

The first is from the recent Cheltenham Preview, panellist AK {Alan King} speaking, a very good friend of Paul Nicholls and a trainer also with a horse Championship horse also out of sorts - do you imagine they didn't discuss their mutual problems and seek each other's advice?

<<
JM: Denman...

AK: I don’t know what to think about him! Kempton was very bad but the vibes are still bad. Katchit is similar in many ways, in terms of last year’s Cheltenham has bottomed the pair of them.

MW: The vibes tell me he won’t come back and I’m tempted to ignore him completely.

AK: He was so ill that the treatment knocked him sideways.

PB: Kempton was everything that Paul Nicholls didn't want to happen.

>>


The second is from tonight's piece on the race - Hales threatens to sue - on the Racing Post website, Paul Barber speaking:

<< ...
Barber also suggested a possible reason for Denman's lacklustre form in his seasonal debut at Kempton in February, when he was running for the first time since being treated for a minor heart problem.


"A friend of mine in Ireland had spoken to a vet there who had said that the particular drug used to treat a fibrillating heart can leave side-effects," Barber said, "to the extent that horses get depressed, not all but some do. I just feel that might be the answer to why it took him so long to come back to his proper form." >>




(and btw, on FF we have had this discussion too, and Trudi has kindly reported what the Newmarket vet's nurse had to say)
 
Shades of the aftermath of the 2004 Tingle Creek...

Neptune Collonges is a most admirable horse but for me, the three in front of him on Friday are, and always were, better horses.

Even if this turns out to be untrue, maybe there is still tension there.

All that anger because Azertyuiop lost to a better horse, then the sad loss of Granit Jack and worries over Noland in the Arkle.
 
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