Gold Cup 2009 (was: Denman)

Not this fast he shouldn't be. I'm still trying to make sense of it.

Suffice to say, all those people looking at Hurricane Fly, Binocular, Celestial Halo, Medermit for next year etc might very well be looking in the wrong direction
 
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All I can say is that I have, inevitably, seen the replay of the closing stages of the race several times today. Every time the acceleration and sustained burst of speed Kauto put in after the third last just takes my breath away. He was awesome yesterday.
 
All I can say is that I have, inevitably, seen the replay of the closing stages of the race several times today. Every time the acceleration and sustained burst of speed Kauto put in after the third last just takes my breath away. He was awesome yesterday.

Completely, and Simon Holt caught the moment perfectly.
 
There's another way of doing it too

Comparing only the races that appeared on both cards, under the same conditions, at the same time of year; (leaving the hunters chase alone)

......................2008...........std..............2009..........std..........diff

County Hurdle...4.09.40.......12.40slw.......4.05.20.......8.20slw.....4.20
Spa Hurdle.......6.00.20.......22.20slw........5.59.90......14.90slw....0.30
Triumph Hurdle..4.07.83.......10.83slw.......4.03.90.......6.90slw.....3.93
Gold Cup..........6.47.84.......8.84slw.........6.44.95......5.95slw......2.89
Grand Annual....4.10.65.......11.65slw........4.07.50......8.50slw......3.15

Now the seriously tragic will have noticed that the RP appear to have altered the standard time for the Spa Hurdle. In 2008 a time of 6.00.20 was slow by 22.20 and hence standard was 5.38.00. This year it appears to have been 5.59.90 and yet slow by 14.90 suggesting that they've put standard at 5.45.00 now (this isn't the only distance they've mucked about with, and they've also back dated some through their archive). Perhaps they've finally worked out that staying hurdlers are donkeys, but 7 secs :blink:. What it means is that I'm increasingly struggling to use standards now to compare horses, and it's making life none to easy if they keep shifting the goalposts. So I've assessed the Spa hurdle on it's old standard and called it 21.90 slw.

You can see straight away that there's a discrepancy between the 2008 and 2009 renewals of the Spa hurdle, suggesting that Weapons Amnesty has run quite a lot slower than expectation given that 2009 times were quite a bit quicker, and at this stage is well down on Nenuphar Collonges performance.

......................2008...........mile..........2009..........mile...........diff

County Hurdle...12.40slw.......5.83slw.......8.20slw..... 3.85slw....1.98
Spa Hurdle........22.20slw.......7.40slw......21.90slw......7.30slw....0.10
Triumph Hurdle..10.83slw.......5.09slw.......6.90slw.......3.24slw....1.85
Gold Cup..........8.84slw.........2.66slw......5.95slw........1.79slw....0.87
Grand Annual....11.65slw........5.64slw......8.50slw........4.12slw...1.52

At the risk of labouring a point the first thing to note is how much slower the staying hurdlers are at a mile than any other horse. It's a pretty typical pattern in truth, even though you might point out that I'm not comparing like with like, but that is why we use class pars for the full analysis, and the same thing tends to happen (although this years World hurdle was an exception). Mind you, it was won by a converted chaser, and a chaser in waiting:p. I'm guessing that the RP have caught up with this and decided to start altering the standards for staying hurdlers to make them look faster?

If you try doing the same thing with the equivilant grades of horse over different distances the same pattern emerges. For instance, this year despite facing slower ground, Go Native ran the 2 mile novice grade 1 equivilant slow by 4.50 at a mile. Over 21F's, annd again on slower ground and in a steady race, Mikael D'Haguenet ran the mile at 6.51 slw, both of which compare favourably with Weapons Amnesty's 7.30 on the old standard and on faster ground. That is to say, those hurdlers running over the shorter distances record faster mile aggregates against the course standard time. Now you might expect this to happen with the increase in distances etc, but the problem is, it doesn't happen with chasers. Horses jumping over fences can run just as fast mile aggregates at 3 miles as those running at 2 miles. Indeed you can even see this on this very limited sample where the Gold Cup horses have run faster per furlong than some who might have been conceivably well handicapped in the Grand Annual which is probably the country's premier 2 mile handicap chase now that the Chandlers a conditions event. Now I've been banging on about this for a few years, and it might very well be that the answer is to do with the standards being wrong and being set too high for staying hurdlers. It seems to be a wild inconsistancy however that the RP can set staying chase standards, but can't do the same for hurdlers for some reason (especially as they seem able to set 2 mile standards over the smaller obstacles). Even you want to try it, just drag out a few cards where a grade 1 staying hurdle is run alongside a 0-135 handicap chase. The grade 1 hurdlers should be about 30-40Ibs better, yet the chasers will frequently run the faster mile aggregates

Anyway I digress; normally you would use class pars to equalise the difference in calibre of horse contesting these events, but since the objective is to establish what the ground was like between 2008 and 2009 this wouldn't be necessary as the same types of horses are contesting the same races at the same distances, at the same time of year, the only difference in the times therefore, is likely to be attributable to the conditions of the ground/ weather; all things being equal. Now I'd discount the Spa hurdle as that appears to have been run at pretty well the same pace as the year previous. You need to decide why, but the evidence there points to Weapons Amnesty being slow, rather than Nenuphar Collonges being fast, as the ratios or percentages if you like between the race times in their respective years are consistant apart from the Spa hurdle of 2009.

Since its the gold Cup under investigation you might choose to ignore this too, and use the three remaining race differentials between 2008 and 2009 to set the variance.

1.98 + 1.85 + 1.52 = 5.35 / 3 = 1.78
1.78 secs slower per mile
1.78 / 8 = 0.22 x 26.5F = 5.91 secs

At race distance the ground was faster in 2009 by 5.91 secs. Kauto was faster by 2.89 secs, which means Denman was faster the year previous by 3.02 secs (or about 12L's on BHA reckoning). If you include the Gold Cups in the respective calculations of variance then Kauto will be nearer as the new mean is 1.55 secs per mile

1.55/ 8 = 0.19 x 26.5 = 5.14 secs - 2.89 secs = 2.25 faster (9L's)
 
I think it was a fantastic race, but in terms of quality,
I think Kauto Star has run better figures than on friday at least 7 or 8 times.


Denman didnt have the preparation, Neptune was clearly below his best and Exotic is also a horse in regresse.



Kauto last year run a huge race not jumping so well, but I think Denmans run last year would have beaten this years Kauto easily by 7 l .
 
I think it was a fantastic race, but in terms of quality,
I think Kauto Star has run better figures than on friday at least 7 or 8 times.


Denman didnt have the preparation, Neptune was clearly below his best and Exotic is also a horse in regresse.



Kauto last year run a huge race not jumping so well, but I think Denmans run last year would have beaten this years Kauto easily by 7 l .

Firstly, Denman didn't beat Kauto easily last year....he was out on his feet crossing the line. You are pulling the "easy 7l" out of the sky Suny...
 
Not only that, but Kauto did win 'easily' this year - he wasn't even puffing as he came down the horsewalk and according to reports of his victory parade around Ditcheat today, he ate up, trotted out very cheerfully, and you'd never think he had had a race! I was told he didn't eat up either before or after the race last year, and was box-walking and unsettled - yes just 'gossip' but I don't think that was an invention

He only did as much as he had to this year and still won by a very wide margin - he could have pulled out quite a bit more if he'd needed to. That's the difference. It's impossible and in a sense misleading to compare the races imo, they weren't run the same at all.
 
Either way, I could never see Denman beat Kauto Star at tracks like Aintree or Kempton. He would need in excess of three miles and a slog on most other tracks as well. Even a fair test of 3 miles like Leopardstown wouldn't be enough.
 
Firstly, Denman didn't beat Kauto easily last year....he was out on his feet crossing the line. You are pulling the "easy 7l" out of the sky Suny...

I think to some extent Denman's running style is deceptive in this regard. The only way he beats Kauto Star is by pressing on and setting punishing fractions for much of the race; it would surely follow that he will be knackered in the last couple of furlongs having expended so much energy in the middle part of the race. He was pretty much out on his feet in the last furlong (though admittedly not as much as at Cheltenham last year) when winning the Hennessy.

Difficult to compare the relative ease of the two victories given the vastly different running styles.
 
... but the evidence there points to Weapons Amnesty being slow, rather than Nenuphar Collonges being fast ...quote]

Horse sitting just off pace all the way, still pulling double down the hill, blocked three times from approaching home turn when trying to get a run and idling once in front. Probably have been a bit faster if he'd had more of a fight on his hands from earlier on. Looks like a chaser in the making - big rawboned frame to him, which needs to fill out.

Early pace in Gold Cup seemed pretty moderate for the class of the race, even the commentator mentioned it. Had it been stronger Kauto would have had to work harder from further out and Denman would most likely have been pulled up, as he was dismounted coming in and in the paddock didn't look half the horse he was last year.

Nothing really outstanding on the ratings this year for me.
 
The very best I’ve seen Kauto at Cheltenham (a course to which he is not suited). He was in the form of his life, if unable to do what we see him do in the KG. Denman didn’t look quite as good as I was expecting (although much better than last time). I always thought that about 175 would be good enough for this year’s race and Denman probably hasn’t ran far off that. Given that he was ridden more cautiously than last year Denman has run a really solid race against a great horse on top of his form.
Well done Kauto on a great achievement, but I’d have no hesitation in backing Denman to slaughter this lot next year.
 
I think to some extent Denman's running style is deceptive in this regard. .... He was pretty much out on his feet in the last furlong (though admittedly not as much as at Cheltenham last year) when winning the Hennessy....


I was standing a few yards in front of the winning post on the rails, when Denman won the Hennessy, and was then right in front of him in the WE. I can state categorically that he was not at all 'out on his feet' and won with consummate ease! In fact he looked as if he might have gone round again... He looked a very different horse, unsurprisingly given his interrupted prep, coming down the horsewalk on Friday
 
I was standing a few yards in front of the winning post on the rails, when Denman won the Hennessy, and was then right in front of him in the WE. I can state categorically that he was not at all 'out on his feet' and won with consummate ease! In fact he looked as if he might have gone round again... He looked a very different horse, unsurprisingly given his interrupted prep, coming down the horsewalk on Friday

That would have been my impression as well from watching it on TV. I take trackside's over all point though about different styles.
 
Me too - see post 788, para 2 LOL!

I find it almost impossible to compare the two horses, and even if we do, God willing, get both fit and sound and fresh for next year, the way the race pans out (which will depend on which horse/yard cuts out the running, and at what pace) will likely determine the outcome, since it will b erun to suit one or the other.

I'd still faovur Kauto, if only marginally, since he was very brave in gaining on Denman last year after running a real stinker. In Friday's form, he seems pretty unbeatable to me
 
I was standing a few yards in front of the winning post on the rails, when Denman won the Hennessy, and was then right in front of him in the WE. I can state categorically that he was not at all 'out on his feet' and won with consummate ease! In fact he looked as if he might have gone round again... He looked a very different horse, unsurprisingly given his interrupted prep, coming down the horsewalk on Friday

Have just watched his Newbury performance again, and you are indeed correct. My mistake.
 
Yes, yes, obviously. And he doesn't stay three and a quarter miles.

For a lesser horse to beat KS his jumping needs to be put under pressure. This is virtually impossible to do at Kempton but at Cheltenham he was forced into jumping errors last year and fell when favourite for the QM. The conditions need to be spot on, but he is beatable.
 
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