Gold Cup (Ascot)

You have to admit, though, as often as not the Gold cup is won by a horse wouldn't ordinarily be entitled to be considered a G1 horse. We've been spoiled by Yeats for a number of years but yesterday was a high class handicap.
 
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Come off it DO - when did Ask become a high class handicapper . A of A had very good group 1 form from the Grand Prix de Paris .

The problem was the best horses did not stay . It doesn't mean it wasn't a good renewal in fact compared to the very weak fields that opposed Yeats in the last two years it was a much better race.
 
Ardross said:
The Levmoss , Ardross and Yeats type of stayer is a rare beast but does not mean they are necessarily greater horses than the other 2m 4f champs.
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Not sure I can have that, James - the very fact that they were top class at more than one distance is precisely what does make the great, surely ?

I love these grand stayers that get their chance to shine over this extreme distance and I am glad we have two G1 races for them to star in but any horse that is versatile over a variety of distances at G1 and G2 really does deserve the accolade of 'great'.
 
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Ardross said:
Come off it DO - when did Ask become a high class handicapper
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But you said he "plainly didn't stay". So his rating over 2m4f could be a lot lower than over 1m4f or 2m? At the end of the day, it is a 25% increase in trip. Consider the racing world introducing two 3 furong Group 1 sprints...one at Royal Ascot and the other at the Arc meeting. As it would be a specialist trip, I'd imagine that the winner might struggle to retain his form over 5f. but it wouldn't take away from the winner of the 3f race, it would just mean they are more adaptable to the specialist nature of the race, inthat there are only two of them a year.
 
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Ardross said:
Come off it DO - when did Ask become a high class handicapper . A of A had very good group 1 form from the Grand Prix de Paris .
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When he failed to stay! :D

Ask is clearly a long way below G1 (or G2 or G3) at 2½m. So was everything else bar the first two.

Age Of Aquarius's 'very good group 1 form' was over 1½m a year ago and it wasn't very good. Beaten by Cavalryman with Mastery in third???

I very much doubt ROP broke through the 120 mark yesterday.
 
Cavalryman's next two performances were winning the Niel and third in the Arc.

Mastery won the Leger two months later.

As Group 1s go, the GP de Paris worked out very well.
 
I'd be interested if anyone is able to analyse the time (I know EC1 doesn't find it useful to do so over long trips), but my impression was that it was a very good performance - certainly at first viewing. The fact that the non-stayers were so brutally exposed suggests it was a proper test in which the front two pulled a long way clear. I suppose it's possible that the ground was a big factor too, as a lot of horses have been beaten jumping distances this week because they have presumably failed to let themselves down on the ground. Personally, I was impressed.
 
Desert Orchid said:
When he failed to stay! :D

Ask is clearly a long way below G1 (or G2 or G3) at 2½m. So was everything else bar the first two.

Age Of Aquarius's 'very good group 1 form' was over 1½m a year ago and it wasn't very good. Beaten by Cavalryman with Mastery in third???

I very much doubt ROP broke through the 120 mark yesterday.
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My recollection of that race is that AOA was gifted a soft lead.
 
Galileo said:
I thought the front two look genuine top notch stayers.
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I think you're right there. Nothing from behind them should really beat them over that trip so will need something to come out of the woodwork to beat them next year.
 
I think you are right, Rory, about many not letting themselves down. Manifest looked distinctly uncomfortable down the far side and Cecil had mentionned he had been jarred up after York.
 
I laughed when the BBC guy (Kevin Darley?) commented during the first few furlongs how well Ask had settled - how on earth he couldnt see Ask was doing too much from the outset was beyond me...though he did correct himself later on in the race.
 
Rory, I agree with that (re letting down), too. Few have done so truly or willingly. Most have finished ponying their strides and keeping their heads up.
 
Galileo said:
I laughed when the BBC guy (Kevin Darley?) commented during the first few furlongs how well Ask had settled - how on earth he couldnt see Ask was doing too much from the outset was beyond me...though he did correct himself later on in the race.
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I knew my bet on Ask (also had him in a double with Hibaayeb so it would have been a really nice win) was gone after seeing that.
 
Cantoris said:
I never said it wasn't a group 1. It deserves to be a group 1. It's a fine race. However, it is one of only two group 1s run over 2m4f, the other being the Cadran. I'm open to correction but is there any group 1, other than these, run beyond 2m? That last four furlongs is a killer and it makes it a specialist race. It's like Cuff Link winning the Queen Alexandra. He was suited by 2m6f and he only got it once a year. Six would turn into the straight together but there'd be a furlong between them at the line. All I'm saying is that a group 1 win in the Gold Cup does not mean you would win any other Group 1. The sprinters, milers and middle distance horses have plenty of group 1s to prove themselves in but those wanting an extreme distance get limited chances. As I said, I'd like to see ROP win a group 1 over 1m6f (the Irish Leger) like Yeats did (over 1m4f). The latter proved he was able to mix it with the best over any trip from 1m4f to 2m4f. The long distance equivalent of Sea The Stars doing the Guineas/Derby double.
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Like it or not, Cantoris, Segal has been proved right in the end with his statement he thinks the horse could win a Group 1. The Ascot Gold Cup is no weak Group 1 either, it is a very prestigious race and to do it down on the basis that it is a 'specialist race' is absurd. I'd rather have a horse win the Ascot Gold Cup than the Irish Leger any day of the week and to say that you won't consider Rite of Passage a Group 1 winner until he has won something like the Irish Leger is lunacy in my opinion.
 
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Shadow Leader said:
Like it or not, Cantoris, Segal has been proved right in the end with his statement he thinks the horse could win a Group 1. The Ascot Gold Cup is no weak Group 1 either, it is a very prestigious race and to do it down on the basis that it is a 'specialist race' is absurd. I'd rather have a horse win the Ascot Gold Cup than the Irish Leger any day of the week and to say that you won't consider Rite of Passage a Group 1 winner until he has won something like the Irish Leger is lunacy in my opinion.
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Shads, you just miss the point.

- Has Segal been proved right in winning a Group 1......Yes
- Is the ascot Gold Cup a prestigious race.......Yes
- Is the Ascot Gold Cup a weak Group 1.....as they only run over this trip at this level once a season, half the field are trying the trip (25% more than they have before) for the first time so the potential for non-stayers is massive. So it turns into a three runner Group 1.....so every year it can be questioned (like in other Group 1s) how good the standard of those three that do stay the trip. That's not the races fault.....it's just the way it is. As a 3f Group 1 race would be a specialist race (and you could include Enda bolger's record in specialist cross country races to prove it), so is a 2m4f group 1
- You'd rather win a Gold Cup than and Irish St Leger.....fair enough, I wouldn't mind winning a Gold Cup either. That's not my point. I'd like ROP to prove his ability in a race where all the runners are capable or have proven they can stay the trip. This could be one of the other Cup races or The Irish Leger. I don't really mind. But some on here beleive very few horses stayed the trip on Thursday so he has something to prove over a shorter trip when those horses do get home. Would like to see him do it.
- I won't consider ROP a Group 1 winner until he has won something like the Leger......now that's lunancy as he's won the Group 1. I'd like to see him do it at a more traditional distance (even 2miles) rather than one they run over once a year. I think you are missing the point. This is not an attack on the Gold Cup or ROP, just a query about whether he can achieve the same over any other trip.
 
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If a sprinter can only win the Nunthorpe and not anything over 5 furlongs - does mean he is not a Group 1 horse at the trip?

I would rather win an Ascot Gold Cup than the Irish Leger.
 
Galileo said:
If a sprinter can only win the Nunthorpe and not anything over 5 furlongs - does mean he is not a Group 1 horse at the trip?

I would rather win an Ascot Gold Cup than the Irish Leger.
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Of course he's a Group 1 winner over 5f. I'm not sure what your question is. Clearly ROP has won a Group 1. That 5f winner has a number of chances to win group races over 5f, Palace House, Nunthorpe, Kings Stand, Temple Stakes. There is only one Group 1 over 2m4f, so if you fluff your lines it's a year till it comes around again. I'd like to see ROP win another Group 1 before next year.

And I'd like to win either the Gold Cup or the Irish Leger. I'm not picky....honest.
 
I think Purple Moon has a right chance today.

He looked to be travelling as well as anything 2 out in the Gold Cup only to not stay as well as the front 2. 6/1 is a more than fair price when you consider he was performing well in 1m4 Group 1s not so long ago.
 
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