Happy Slapping
- Thread starter jacmac
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Very good, HT!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
On a more serious note though, I firmly believe that most of society's current problems with yob behaviour originate from a lack of discipline in the home. I agree totally with Jules; my initial thought on reading Wasser's post was that the opposite was more likely to be true. Parents nowadays seem almost to be frightened of disciplining their kids, in any form, not just smacking, but withdrawing privileges and similar. Jon, I see your point about withdrawing treats & privileges, but I still feel that this needs to be used in conjunction with the odd smack if the circumstances dictate it. I can see the situation now - "ok Johnny, know that you've been caught 'happy slapping' at school & suspended, you will not get any pocket money & you are grounded for a month". "Yeah Mum, what are you f'ing gonna do about it? When you are at work are you gonna lock the f'ing doors & windows so that I can't get out?". I am sure that being deprived of pocket money wouldn't be an issue for many kids - they will simply shoplift instead, if they are not already.
I don't really want to get into the smacking debate again but I firmly believe that especially for young children, smacking serves a good purpose. The threat of a slap on the back of the legs is often enough to remind them to behave and a smack on the back of the legs or the bottom will not harm or hurt them. Before anyone starts - I do not condone violent beating of children at all; a smack is not violent beating in my book. The type of people who do beat their kids are not going to stop for anyone, whether smacking kids is legal or not, so I do not think using the subject of those type of beatings serves as a purpose in a debate over whether smacking should be made illegal or not.
The entire problem revolves around a total lack of respect for anyone or anything - something a very large proportion of kids are brought up without anymore. The entire country has turned into a nation of bleeding heart liberals, God forbid that anyone should try to tell their offspring what to do or attempt to instill discipline in them.
On the plus side, my friend and her nearly 7 year old son came to stay with me for 5 days in April and I was most impressed with the polite, respectful, well-behaved child he is - they were a delight to have to stay. My friends who met him were very impressed with what a lovely little boy he is too. Having lived with my friend & her boyfriend for a year when Gus was 18 months to 2 and a half, I know that from day one he was brought up to respect other people and things and was told off if he misbehaved. His mum is one of 8 and they are all genuinely nice people and his dad comes from an Irish family upbringing so they recognise the importance of bringing up a child properly.
On a more serious note though, I firmly believe that most of society's current problems with yob behaviour originate from a lack of discipline in the home. I agree totally with Jules; my initial thought on reading Wasser's post was that the opposite was more likely to be true. Parents nowadays seem almost to be frightened of disciplining their kids, in any form, not just smacking, but withdrawing privileges and similar. Jon, I see your point about withdrawing treats & privileges, but I still feel that this needs to be used in conjunction with the odd smack if the circumstances dictate it. I can see the situation now - "ok Johnny, know that you've been caught 'happy slapping' at school & suspended, you will not get any pocket money & you are grounded for a month". "Yeah Mum, what are you f'ing gonna do about it? When you are at work are you gonna lock the f'ing doors & windows so that I can't get out?". I am sure that being deprived of pocket money wouldn't be an issue for many kids - they will simply shoplift instead, if they are not already.
I don't really want to get into the smacking debate again but I firmly believe that especially for young children, smacking serves a good purpose. The threat of a slap on the back of the legs is often enough to remind them to behave and a smack on the back of the legs or the bottom will not harm or hurt them. Before anyone starts - I do not condone violent beating of children at all; a smack is not violent beating in my book. The type of people who do beat their kids are not going to stop for anyone, whether smacking kids is legal or not, so I do not think using the subject of those type of beatings serves as a purpose in a debate over whether smacking should be made illegal or not.
The entire problem revolves around a total lack of respect for anyone or anything - something a very large proportion of kids are brought up without anymore. The entire country has turned into a nation of bleeding heart liberals, God forbid that anyone should try to tell their offspring what to do or attempt to instill discipline in them.
On the plus side, my friend and her nearly 7 year old son came to stay with me for 5 days in April and I was most impressed with the polite, respectful, well-behaved child he is - they were a delight to have to stay. My friends who met him were very impressed with what a lovely little boy he is too. Having lived with my friend & her boyfriend for a year when Gus was 18 months to 2 and a half, I know that from day one he was brought up to respect other people and things and was told off if he misbehaved. His mum is one of 8 and they are all genuinely nice people and his dad comes from an Irish family upbringing so they recognise the importance of bringing up a child properly.
BrianH
At the Start
And I know from experience that it is perfectly possible - indeed, I would say much more likely - for children to grow up as that boy is doing without them ever being hit.
Shadow Leader
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Of course it is possible Brian; I would certainly dispute that it is much more likely that a child can be brought up to become polite, respectful and well-behaved if they never receive a smack - I think that the reverse applies. I think this is particularly the case now because once a child starts interacting with other children (at playgroup, school, nursery or whatever) they will be surrounded by little thugs that hold no respect for anyone or anything so are more likely to push their luck having seen their peers get away with their total lack of respect. Kids are kids - no matter how well-behaved they are they will always try to push their luck to see how far they can push their parents/teachers or whoever.
Wassermusik
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i have got the idea, that people who show some kind of joy in thinking of a "smack" on children - and argueing they have got it themselves when being a child - probably have the same virtual good feelings/longings to some consentual sexual violence in adult partnerships.
no offence meant, i am just wondering...
BrianH
At the Start
Sorry to hear that all tghe playgroups in the Newbury area are packed out with thugs
"Smacking" is not a form of violence. You smack children to draw the line, not to hurt. It is a way of showing ultimate displeasure at a child's behaviour.
The most obnoxious, cheeky, badly behaved children I have come across are those who are treated by their parents as young adults, who explain in a logical, reasoned manner why they really oughtened to behave in a particular manner. From the child perspective, they try to bore them into submission, but since they are treated as equals, they are quite entitled to ignore this advice (not order).
My child's current teacher, who taught me when I was young, I would consider to have been the best teacher I came across in all my years of schooling. All the kids loved her in my day, and a look of disappointment from her was enough to have you feeling ashamed of yourself. There was a mutual respect thing, with the knowledge that she was very much in charge. Unfortunately now she has difficulty coping with a, thankfully, small number of kids, who will confront her and accept nothing they are told without explanation, an explanation they reserve the right to reject. And backed up by their parents who will openly critisize her in front of these pupils when they feel the need.
The most obnoxious, cheeky, badly behaved children I have come across are those who are treated by their parents as young adults, who explain in a logical, reasoned manner why they really oughtened to behave in a particular manner. From the child perspective, they try to bore them into submission, but since they are treated as equals, they are quite entitled to ignore this advice (not order).
My child's current teacher, who taught me when I was young, I would consider to have been the best teacher I came across in all my years of schooling. All the kids loved her in my day, and a look of disappointment from her was enough to have you feeling ashamed of yourself. There was a mutual respect thing, with the knowledge that she was very much in charge. Unfortunately now she has difficulty coping with a, thankfully, small number of kids, who will confront her and accept nothing they are told without explanation, an explanation they reserve the right to reject. And backed up by their parents who will openly critisize her in front of these pupils when they feel the need.
I realise, Wasser, that there may well be a translation problem here - well, being charitable I am going to assume that there is - but dragging sexual violence into this debate achieves nothing and merely lowers the tone.
I can assure you that, even though I only ever smacked my son maybe a couple of times (on his leg as Dom rightly points out) during his childhood and only received the same myself as a child, I don't condone violence in any format.
There is a world of difference between smacking and hitting - between responsible and sensible discipline and out-of-control violence. As Jon also points out, it's not whether or not you smack your child, it's also how you reward, praise and motivate them too - without reinforcing positive behaviour and punishing bad, how can a child ever appreciate the difference berween good and bad?
It's like living in a mono-climate - it's only when you know how bad something can be that you really appreciate the reverse.
I still look back on my own son's childhood wishing that maybe I would have done better if I'd been around more and not working all hours but, on the other hand, I came from a family who were never afraid to hug and joke about and Giles was raised the same way - and eben though he's now 22, I am glad to report that we still hug/kiss one another and share a similar sense of humour. We ain't perfect - far from it - but neither of us are delinquents, either! Or perverts, come to that......
Too true, Mel - and another problem that is very prevalent imo is this need for parents to be their child's 'best friend' or for the children to call them by their christian names.
Sorry, but I consider it to be a great privilege to be a parent - and I reckon I'm irreplaceable! No one else can be Giles' mother - that's my unique role in his life. Yes, I am there for him at any time and luckily he'll talk through many of his problems but I am not his best friend, exactly - he'll have several of those throughout his life but only one mother ! I don't want to be on christian name terms either - it removes a thin barrier of respect that I feel is a positive element in a parent-child relationship.
It's a part of the desire to be young for as long as possible, I suppose - and I freely admit to wanting to sign up to that too - but I don't believe it helps your kids particularly, tho' others will obviously see this differently!
Sorry, but I consider it to be a great privilege to be a parent - and I reckon I'm irreplaceable! No one else can be Giles' mother - that's my unique role in his life. Yes, I am there for him at any time and luckily he'll talk through many of his problems but I am not his best friend, exactly - he'll have several of those throughout his life but only one mother ! I don't want to be on christian name terms either - it removes a thin barrier of respect that I feel is a positive element in a parent-child relationship.
It's a part of the desire to be young for as long as possible, I suppose - and I freely admit to wanting to sign up to that too - but I don't believe it helps your kids particularly, tho' others will obviously see this differently!
BrianH
At the Start
Be their best friend - and beat them regularly! :lol:
I certainly agree with the first part.
I certainly agree with the first part.
Honest Tom
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None taken Wasser. However, I would just like to point out that I derive no pleasure from burying alive / crucifying small nursery infants. Indeed, I often find this to be quite upsetting.
What is the alternative to a slap?
Threatening to deny a treat wont work unless you actually act on the threat occasionally. Which is a right pain in the arse as it causes nothing but a longer term sulking. Added to that you get as much pleasure from seeing your child enjoying the treat as they get themselves, so 99 times out of 100 you won't act on it, which means there is sod all chance of getting a positive response.
Threatening to deny a treat wont work unless you actually act on the threat occasionally. Which is a right pain in the arse as it causes nothing but a longer term sulking. Added to that you get as much pleasure from seeing your child enjoying the treat as they get themselves, so 99 times out of 100 you won't act on it, which means there is sod all chance of getting a positive response.
BrianH
At the Start
It's a sad world when we can't think of an alternative to violence!
So, you get bad service from Dixon's or NTL - what's the best solution? Go and find a representative of the company and punch them in the nose?
Your neighbour accidentally chops down one of your new conifers and refuses to pay for it, what do you do? Fetch the twelve bore?
You disagree with people who are of a different religion to you, so what action do you take? Er, better forget that one.
Brian, say what you will, there are those of us out here who are perfectly capable of administering a slap which in no way can be deemed violent.
And pray tell, how come it's not OK to discipline your children this way but perfectly acceptable to do much worse to your horse in a race? Don't remember you being opposed to a reasonable degree of force under those circumstances!
It's a question of degree, moderation and restraint. Yes, I have on occasion felt like slapping the odd so-called Help Desk Support Staff Person (another misnomer if ever there was one....) but I wouldn't dream of doing so - you are not talking about a child, you're talking about dealing with other adults. Though on many an occasion, I reckon I've met more intelligent 5 year olds than some of these idiots at the end of the phone line...
By all means try reasoning with your child first - it's obviously the correct thing to do - but it won't always work and sometimes the shock of a slap will.
But hey, I do admit to treating my animals and my kid in pretty much the same manner overall...... He just costs me more !B)
And pray tell, how come it's not OK to discipline your children this way but perfectly acceptable to do much worse to your horse in a race? Don't remember you being opposed to a reasonable degree of force under those circumstances!
It's a question of degree, moderation and restraint. Yes, I have on occasion felt like slapping the odd so-called Help Desk Support Staff Person (another misnomer if ever there was one....) but I wouldn't dream of doing so - you are not talking about a child, you're talking about dealing with other adults. Though on many an occasion, I reckon I've met more intelligent 5 year olds than some of these idiots at the end of the phone line...
By all means try reasoning with your child first - it's obviously the correct thing to do - but it won't always work and sometimes the shock of a slap will.
But hey, I do admit to treating my animals and my kid in pretty much the same manner overall...... He just costs me more !B)
Wassermusik
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No, there ist NOT.
(you only invent this to justify your opinion)
the principle here is: it is hurting one persons physical integrity (and most bad if this person is a child).
two other things:
- those mentioned by Melendez as most "obnoxious, cheeky, badly behaved " children ... are not those who slap others in their face later on. i agree, that they are hard to bear, but it is another social group to those who use violence as adults. (mostly they happen to be your boss in a future employment...)
- what was not said here int the debate, but what i must admit is, that mental violence (as opposed to physical) is equally bad than beating or smacking, and it it often leads to deviant behaviour as an adult.
Sorry, Wasser, but you fail utterly to convince me. There IS a difference - there's always a matter of degree in virtualy everything we do!
Please don't lecture me as to whether or not I'm 'inventing' something to justify an argument. I truly believe there is a difference - I am most certainly not a violent person and have never inflicted an injury another adult or child in anger in my life.
This is a matter, like many others on here, which we won't agree on.
Please don't lecture me as to whether or not I'm 'inventing' something to justify an argument. I truly believe there is a difference - I am most certainly not a violent person and have never inflicted an injury another adult or child in anger in my life.
This is a matter, like many others on here, which we won't agree on.
K
Kathy
Guest
I think we would all agree that none of us on this forum are violent, so how did YOUR parents discipline you if you were naughty? Now, by naughty, and if you are from the same era as I am, that will mean not eating all your greens, coming back later than agreed from a friends house, not doing all your homework, getting a poor report for talking too much in class, wearing too much make up when you were 14 (for the girls that is!) etc etc and not running around slapping total strangers or daisey chaining as seems to be q level of child naughtiness nowadays. :blink:
I was always threatened with "wait until your father get's home" or when we lived in the pub, we were sent to bed early, but we could watch the old men playing bowls out of the bedroom window so it was hardly discipline and we quite enjoyed it. I was never hit as far as I can remember. Even when my brother nearly set fire to the goose shed (with the geese inside) he only had a severe telling off but not a hand was lifted to him.
I think society has changed, probably forever. This world is not the world I recognise easily, and alot of the violence sits very uncomfortably with me as it all starts from such a young age. It has to be changed, but somehow I don't think this will happen in my lifetime unless something is done quickly.
I was always threatened with "wait until your father get's home" or when we lived in the pub, we were sent to bed early, but we could watch the old men playing bowls out of the bedroom window so it was hardly discipline and we quite enjoyed it. I was never hit as far as I can remember. Even when my brother nearly set fire to the goose shed (with the geese inside) he only had a severe telling off but not a hand was lifted to him.
I think society has changed, probably forever. This world is not the world I recognise easily, and alot of the violence sits very uncomfortably with me as it all starts from such a young age. It has to be changed, but somehow I don't think this will happen in my lifetime unless something is done quickly.
simmo
Senior Jockey
By smacking me.
Do I resent it? No.
Do I engage in consentual sexual violence? No.
Do I believe that violence is an acceptable means of settling an argument or dispute? No.
I would put forward the suggestion that the majority of those partaking in happy slapping are likely, certainly if the evidence of my eyes is anything to go by, to be actively taught by their parents to be nasty little bastards. Perhaps it's just because I have a high degree of exposure to such elements of society that I feel this is the case.
BrianH
At the Start
We get involved in lots of these sort of debates and the upshot is that no one changes the view with which they started. So, from that point of view they are a waste of bandwidth. I'll just end with the simple rationale behind my views:
(1) Hitting people is wrong.
(2) Children are people.
Thank you and goodnight.
(1) Hitting people is wrong.
(2) Children are people.
Thank you and goodnight.
Wassermusik
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i am not interested in convincing you of anything. i only said what is common knowledge in pedagogics.
and regarding this "matter of degree in everything" you are doing - are you really living without principles?
Wasser, I think your argument is suffering from deficiencies in translation, so there's no point continuing it, as my German is virtually non-existent and I think it very commendable of you to be able to argue your corner at all in another language!
But please don't be insulting by alleging that I live without principles - that is both rude and quite obviously incorrect. My principles are different to yours, quite obviously, but none the worse or better for that. I abide by the laws in this country and those of whatever country I happen to be in - that's called tolerance.
Brian - as you say, no one is going to change another's opinions on here and I quite agree that children are people! Nowhere have I said anything different. Ho
I agree hitting is wrong too!
But please don't be insulting by alleging that I live without principles - that is both rude and quite obviously incorrect. My principles are different to yours, quite obviously, but none the worse or better for that. I abide by the laws in this country and those of whatever country I happen to be in - that's called tolerance.
Brian - as you say, no one is going to change another's opinions on here and I quite agree that children are people! Nowhere have I said anything different. Ho
I agree hitting is wrong too!
Honest Tom
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As John Wayne said in The Alamo "it's a shame they've got to grow up into people".
A
Ardross
Guest
I can't stand John Wayne , so wooden he makes Keanu Reeves look like Laurence Olivier . A terrible actor and a nasty piece of work .