Happy Slapping

Originally posted by Colin Phillips@May 19 2005, 06:41 AM
By the way, I am surprised that you and your wife were influenced by outside opinion when you obviously were doing it the "right way" with you first two.

Colin
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Hi Colin

When my wife and I were much younger and still raising all three sons it was so easy to be open minded and give anything a go and remember as our sons were so close in age, growing up together we had no idea at that time that how we had raised our two eldest in their early years would turn out to be the right way until many years later when they had grown up.

We had always given the two eldest a slap on the legs when needed but not our 19 year old, when he was in school he started playing truant and my wife and I were threatened with fines if we didn't do anything about it, so we dragged him to school and left him there, the school were on our backs and we asked for help, that was our mistake as this is about the time we were given the advice about if you try this or that it might have an impact and get your youngest son to go to school. Fearing large fines we were prepared to try anything at that time.

I can also well recall in the news around that time a report about a father whose daughter kept playing truant, so like us, he dragged his daughter to school, one day she was being a real pain and wouldn't get out of the car, so her father pulled her out by her arm and made sure she stayed in the school grounds, this was witnessed by the head teacher and she promptly called the police to have the father arrested, he was charged with common assault against his daughter. Seems whatever this guy did he couldn't win.

Whenever we even threatened our youngest son with a slap he would shout back, 'do it and I will just call the police'! I guess looking back he was in control from quite a young age, he was a bright, intelligent and confident child we thought we were doing the right thing by not smacking and talking things over, sometimes it did work, he would behave for a few days but it wasn't long before he was back to his old self.

Like many parents at that time bringing up kids proved really difficult, there were bad outside influences and from the age of about 14 our youngest son got involved with drugs, only "pot" but he is addicted, refuses to admit it and says it's no different to smoking a ciggarette. We have tried in vain to get him to seek help but he won't admit he has a problem and ignores our pleas. His life revolves around getting his fix for the day and needless to say we keep everything of value locked up, even the parrots have combination padlocks on the outside of their cages!

My wife and I love all three of our sons, but we really don't like our youngest, loving and liking them are completely different.

Mark
 
Mark,

You sound like an extremely caring parent, who had done everything possible to keep his son on the straight and narrow. I just hope your son goes full circle and realises what an idiot he is being. It does happen. All you can do is support him until hopefully, he realises how much he needs his Mum and Dad.

One of my customers phoned me today as his son, same age is suffering from similar symptons. Initially the truancy, now he has left school he has limited interest in anything and won't get up until 11m, goes off to the pub to drink and then stays out smoking pot until the early hours. He has decided to buy him a transit van from a local auction, and give him a job at his company to see if this will give him something to concentrate on and hopefully a sense of responsibility. The elder son has been through university and is now living in France and is the complete opposite. He is distraught as he saw the difference in the boys many, many years ago, and yet nothing he has done or said, has changed the younger one but he will do whatever he can to see if he can instigate a change. I hope the job is at least the beginning of a long term change.
 
Mark
A couple of well-written and obviously heartfelt posts.From what you have said you should not feel you have failed your youngest. Circumstances and society have changed and the quite proper,and necessary, protections brought in for kids have also limited the ways in which even a responsible parent can deal with an unruly child.Perhaps the biggest change of all has been the acceptance that the child is always right rather than that the parent (or teacher) deserves support if they are acting reasonably.Nobody wants to determine what is reasonable.

In my view there is no single right way to treat growing kids but there are definitely several wrong ways. I come from a large family and have seen ,close up, children that have been harshly,and physically punished turn out extremely nasty but others turn out fine. The same with children that have been given far greater freedom,some have become criminals and others highly paid and responsible professionals.

As a kid I was terrified of my father's moods though looking back this was more a fear of the blood boiling resentment engendered by irrational actions rather fear of what was actually rare physical punishment. Later, at boarding school, my determination to fear nothing,( or at least to demonstrate a lack of fear),led me to become a target for both bullies and some distinctly unpleasant masters. Proving how hard I was made me a real shit however a short term job I had at 15 brought about 'Damascus' like change.
An avuncular boss and a group of blokes who treated me with respect but also enjoyed telling me how stupid I was, soon pointed me on the right road. Their attitudes are those which I adopted in bringing up my two sons. Thus far, they are 17 and 15, they are far better people than their father ever was and they cannot remember me ever hitting them, though they tell me they "used to be scared stiff"of me. I can remember slapping one who at the age of 3 punched me 'full on' in the b@lls but even that restrained reaction made me feel awful, and probably I have
'tapped' each of them once or twice in total.
Close friends of my wife have brought their kids up in a similar way and whilst the two oldest are respectively at or have left University, the youngest ,only 2 years younger , is the main young thug in our area. A really nasty piece of work, his parents believe he fell in with a bad lot. Not so, he is the corrupting influence on a growing number of local lads. Why? Who knows, but I have seen a number of instances where the youngest is the most rebellious. Perhaps it is because we change the way we interact with children as they grow older,using reason much more and sanctioning less however the younger ones feel they should be treated exactly the same as their older siblings and feel hard done by. That said ,most who are older siblings will state that the parents are much easier on the youngest.

My somewhat laboured point is that most of us try our darnedest to bring our kids in the way we feel is most appropriate but in the end, a child's environment,friends and fate can still thwart our efforts. Those parents that are excessively strict (and sometimes violent) or at the other extreme are just not bothered are almost certain to create problems for society.
 
A few years back there were few parents who hadn't been issued with the dreaded threat "if you do that, I'll phone Esther".
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I still think you're on the right track with your style of demonstrating the rules, HT. Chuck in wearing a Freddy Kruger mask and firing up the old chainsaw at two in the morning, and they'll soon realize you mean business about stopping their pocket money.
 
Ditto - thanks to Mark and Laurence for their experiences - because of the extreme number of lifestyle choices on offer to us all out there I reckonm it just all adds up to more confusion - and you just have to hope your basic parenting instincts win through.

BrianH Posted on May 19 2005, 06:10 PM
The message should be that you love them but hate their behaviour
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Sorry Brian - you must think I'm on a personal agumentative crusade B) but behaviour doesn't just 'happen' - it's the physical expression of the individual, surely?

I think it perfectly possible to love your child totally but still dislike them from time-to-time and quite feasible for teenagers, for sure, to be able to recognise and appreciate the subtle difference.
 
Yes, it is, but on an individual, rather than a broadly societal, level, what would any of you loving, caring, parents do in Mark's unfortunate case? It's fine telling someone you love them, but don't like/abhor/detest their behaviour. But if that has no effect - in fact, they more or less laugh in your face - how would you handle the issue?

If we are rabid non-smokers, and won't have smoking in our homes, making our guests drag on their fags in the garden (if they must, etc.), then at a certain point in life, our children (she says, having begotten nowt!) have to be treated the same way. If Mark and his wife are worried that their son's pot habit is affecting his attitude to getting a job, his attitude towards showing them some basic respect, etc., they have the right to offer him the door. As you would to a guest who'd repeatedly abused your hospitality.

Of course I know they're your blood, of your making, and so on. But at a certain point, everyone has to row their own boat, or else all you do is passively encourage a mutually resentful co-dependence. You've got to ask yourself why you want this 'child' around you, any more than you'd want anyone who refused to behave in YOUR OWN HOME. If you can't effect a change for the better, why do you keep them? Let them keep themselves.

There are millions of little kids, all over the world, who are helping to support enormous families by working themselves to the bone, being denied education, proper nutrition, any medical care, etc., who are polite, respectful, loved and loving within the rigours of extreme poverty, and with absolutely NO chance of betterment on the horizon.

I'm sorry, but I just don't get this notion that anyone has to put up with a crappy attitude from their pampered, lazy kids. Go on - call Esther, call the police, call Social Services. At 19, lying in your room, being able to afford to toke up, presumably well fed, clean, clothed, affording beer, and offering only grief to your family as their reward, you need a darn good wake-up call.
 
God, I wish I could've slept more last night... goodness knows why I've gone off on one on a subject I'm entirely unqualified to comment on - apart from having been a model child/teenager! :brows:
 
Krizon, you have the habit of being very fair and to admit you are not qualified as ( I assume) a non parent endorses that.

Raising children today is a chosen task and one which I would not take on.
I was lucky enough to be a part of raising two children nearly 40 years ago when
we as parents had control.

Mark's account shows what a minefield it is and for those who have not been a parent can only have theoretical input which today counts for zilch.
 
You raised kids nearly forty years ago, 221? :o Good grief, I thought you were in your twenties! :blink: Uh, well, take that as a compliment that they've kept you young!

Thanks for the compliment about being fair. And, to be fair, :D I absolutely would be terrified to become a parent (not because I'm 90, but if I were in my 20s, I mean) nowadays. There's always some snoop looking over your shoulder the whole time, and if parents eventually decide to give up on trying to control wayward children, I don't blame them.
 
Thanks everyone for your reponses to my posts, it's been interesting to read all the views. It would seem as many agree it is a minefield these days to raise a child. Each parent will have 'their' way of doing things and hope for the best!

krizon - I appreciate you taking the time to post and I do actually understand your points very clearly, it does indeed make sense to show people the door when their behaviour becomes unacceptable, there's only one difference, once you have children that bond of parent/child doesn't just disappear when they become disrespectful and intolerable. Okay, so he is 19 and grown up and part of me and my wife would quite like to give him that short sharp shock, but what if it went wrong, what if because of us throwing him out he became involved in crime, perhaps even end up in prison or decide to take hard drugs? Although I understand as an adult it is "his" choice to travel the road he wishes, but I know that as parents both my wife and myself would shoulder the blame and guilt - if only we hadn't kicked him out and tried to help more...it's just not that easy. I can still remember my son as a really pleasant cheerful lad with a hearty laugh and I hope that somewhere beneath all that disrespect that lad still remains and will one day resurface. Drugs, even pot, changes ones personality considerably and I am convinced that if he would quit his behaviour would be quite different.

It may seem like our lives are made utterly miserable because of him, to a degree yes, but that's only because we can't trust him 100% at the moment, so even a day out takes some planning! To be fair, he does get up at 6.00 every morning for his casual work and in his way he thinks he contributes, he doesn't pay full board and lodgings by any means, there is a fixed sum but my son will usually hand over a much smaller amount stating that's all I can afford this week. We are trying to resolve this among other issues and I have to be honest and admit it is my wife that takes the time out to talk to him endlessly, my patience drained a long time ago and I fear that if I were to talk to him the only example I would set is how to lose ones temper, I truly don't know how to handle him these days.

So, my wife and I try to get on with our lives, I have my horse racing which I love, my wife does web design (she also reads this forum by the way and enjoys it!) and we have our interests in birds and in the meantime we take each day as it comes and forever hope one day our son will decide to quit the pot and grasp life with both hands while he is young enough to do so.

At least he is not guilty of 'happy slapping' to our knowledge and I know things could always be worse than they are. Having kids is like riding a roller coaster, it's all up and down and it's surprising how long one can live on more pleasant memories when you need to.

Thanks all again

Mark
 
Keep us all updated of his progress Mark. He obviously has extremely supportive parents. Has he got a girlfriend by the way (and no, that isn't an offer) B) ? Sometimes when a young man finds something else to ccncentrate on, it can have the most amazing effect on their outlook. I hope your son finds what he is looking for in life and appreciates the support you continually give him. I am sure he will thank you both one day. It is great you and your wife both have other interests. Has your son ever shown any interest in either of your hobbies? Has he ever been racing with you for instance or is he so fixed in a rut he has little other time for hobbies?
 
Krizon, I am 65 yrs old, fully qualified as a 'coffin dodger' but do not wear the coffin dodger designer garb of biege jacket with matching trousers, although I may sometimes have the obligatory soup stain down my front !

I once sat in on an appointment with my partner and her doctor when she was having awful problems with depression caused by having a drug addicted son, she had been buying all his food and just about everything else but she couldn't see that, indirectly she was buying his drugs.
Everyone told her that her son had to reach rock bottom before he might realise his plight and that she as his mother was his crutch and wasn't helping him.

The doc spelt all this out to her but finished off by saying " I don't know if I could take my own advice if I were his mother"

Which sums up Mark's and todays' other parents' problems.
 
Originally posted by 221bar1@May 21 2005, 08:47 AM
Krizon, I am 65 yrs old, fully qualified as a 'coffin dodger' but do not wear the coffin dodger designer garb of biege jacket with matching trousers, although I may sometimes have the obligatory soup stain down my front !
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Blooming heck! I was convinced you were in your 30's or 40's!!! :o B)
 
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