Hennessy Entries

Yep.

Ferdie is well known for predominantly targeting the big Spring races, this time last year he told anyone who would listen L'Antartique had the potential to be one of the top horses in his yard and I couldn't believe his price at the festival.

The Paddy Power is a step up in class but not beyond him and he's obviously got him ready early for a go at something.

Who might it pay to remember next Spring ? I think Three Mirrors will win a big race somewhere but that Nine De Sivola will be the one to keep on the right side of in the coming months.
 
....or, they send horses to run in a grade 2 races fat and unfit, to have a school round. I have no problem whatsoever with horses needing a run or being off peak fitness but there is needing a run and needing a run. In fact, I'm led to believe that the phrase "having a nice school round" was quoted publicly by connections at one point. That's just taking the p*ss.
 
Wasn't it Danoli's connections who really took the biscuit? Coming back off a lay off and openly admitting pre-race that he'd be pulled up after halfway (or words to that effect) IIRC.
 
That's what I love best about racing. Some people get away with schooling in public whilst others have the book thrown at them as it's against the rules. It's the guessing whether they'll like you enough to turn a blind eye or not that adds to the intrigue!
 
Re 6-y-os in the Hennessy, of the seven winners of the race preceding those in Rorydelargy's list, three were 6-y-os, including the first two winners Mandarin and Taxidermist, plus Mill House(under 12 stone) in 1963.
 
There's a distinct difference between schooling in public and a horse needing the race as you well know SL. This was definitely the latter in this case. And presumably Paul Nicholls and Alan King are just as guilty as Ferdy as most of there's have needed the run too.

Perhaps if the likes of David Pipe, Peter Bowen, Evan Williams, Edgey, NTD, etc spent less time targetting early season races with their horses they would do better in the end of season Festivals. And lets face it the alternative is to take the Hen or Nicky Richards route and only run the best horses three times a season to keep them fresh. I certainly know which I would prefer.

Essentially if you want to peak a horse this side of Christmas it is pretty difficult to peak a horse a second time in March without a break and for me it seems eminiently sensible to make sure a horse can see a season out without being over the top by February and still let the horse take in a sensible racing programme.

Nobody is being cheated here, and the handicapper isn't going to drop a mark based on a seasonal pipe-opener. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with a horse improving it's fitness through racing.
 
Thats one way of looking at it.

The other option is to get your horse fit enough and try to win a few decent races during the season without banking on winning in March. Letting the whole season go by keeping fresh isnt necessarily the eminently sensible suggestion it first appears if you end up getting beaten in March or April anyway with no more targets at which to aim, though clearly it works some of the time.
 
It's all a matter of opinion Maruco and of course I know the difference between schooling in public and a horse needing a run - IMO this was a case of the former. To my mind, riding the "perfect race" by popping around quietly before pulling a horse up is exactly what schooling in public is, not a horse needing a run. Hells bells, connections as good as came out and said they were only giving the horse a nice school round!

That's completely aside from the fact that if you are to increase the chances of injuring a horse, running them patently unfit is the easiest and quickest way to do it.
 
if you are to increase the chances of injuring a horse, running them patently unfit is the easiest and quickest way to do it.
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As I have said elsewhere, and as Nicky Henderson is quoted in todays paper 'An awful lot of injuries are caused by them not being fit, particularly at this time of year'
 
Knowing the trainer and the syndicate manager very well I can categorically tell you Aces Four was not 'schooled in public', what did he need schooling for anyway? And without spelling out the specific conversation on the morning of the race connections were hopeful. He jumped and travelled very well I thought and simply blew up, and therefore Graham Lee did exactly the right thing by pulling him up rather than letting him make a leg-weary jump somewhere. Kalmo Bay in the same ownership made his debut over Fences as a four year old on Friday. He was no further forward than Aces Four but won his race after jumping impressively. Theoretically the same thing could have happened but the difference was he was racing against 100 rated horses rather than 160 rated horses who will find a horse out that is still slightly short. Both horses will almost certainly improve for their first runs despite very different results. Aces Four was in a very similar place fitness-wise this time last season and had a very different result. But as I say he wasn't taking on 160 rated chasers.

What is forgotten very easily here is that we have had an unseasonally dry Autumn. Many horses have missed early targets because of trainers not wanting to run horses on rattling ground. The same issue applies to trainers grass gallops, and sending horses up a 7f all weather gallop is only part of getting them 100%. The alternative of course is they all stay in their boxes until it rains.

You make an absolutely valid point Uncle Goober, and Nigel Twiston-Davies does a fantastic job of exploiting exactly that. He doesn't have too many winners in the big end of season Festivals though, and those that he does he has generally looked after through the season, and are mostly lighter raced novices. Essentially horses of different age and ability are going to have very different targets and will be trained and campaigned accordingly, and for me that's just normal. A trainer will map out a campaign for his better horses and will target races and a programme that suits. Lesser horses may simply take their chances as they come.

In terms of horses picking up injuries because they are not fit enough doesn't mean a horse not being at its peak isn't fit enough and risks injury. There is a very big difference between not being fit and not being at your peak. And to be fair do you see any more injuries in Ferdy's string than you do Nicky Henderson's?
 
I'm not disputing that Lee shouldn't have pulled him up, Maruco, I'm questioning whether the horse was fit enough to be competing in a race (not least a Grade 2 chase!) in the first place. Of course Lee did the right thing in pulling him up if he was that knackered - why would you run a horse who was patently unfit in a Grade 2 chase anyway? Let's not forget that Murphy & Hannity as good as said in the press that the horse wasn't fit and was expected to blow up anyway!

I am all too aware of the dry autumn we've had also - it has affected me and my horses also! The point you make about a 7f all-weather is more than a slight exaggeration also - not all trainers submit their horses to the same regime and I also know plenty who get a lot of work into them at home and away - it only costs £25 to send a horse to work at Lingfield on the all-weather if things are that desperate! (yes, I'm also fully aware that Ferdy is at the other end of the country; that was just an example).

I also don't have a problem with horses not being at their peak when they run, Maruco - I am fully aware of the pitfalls of training horses having done so myself! - I think there is more of an issue when horses are sent to the races patently unfit, which I believe Aces Four was. The comments in the press from connections tend to support this view also. It is when you send horses to the races knowing they are unfit that you are going to run a large risk of injuring them.
 
Originally posted by Maruco@Nov 9 2007, 03:28 PM
Nobody is being cheated here, and the handicapper isn't going to drop a mark based on a seasonal pipe-opener. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with a horse improving it's fitness through racing.
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That is where I completely disagree with you.

What about all the punters at Wetherby who backed the horse only to see it ridden right out the back and then see it move up nicely on the heels of the leaders only to see it be pulled up 2 fences later without any real effort from the saddle.

I'm not disputing the fact you don't want a horse to peak in October and so forth but there is a huge difference in Pipe and Nicholl's horses needing a run and then Ferdy Murphy's efforts with Aces Four.

Nicholls will campaign his chasers by running them back over hurdles where the majority have a lower rating or better than that some are still novices. That way they aren't in a top grade race and can normally run a decent race without winning.

The annoying thing with Aces Four is its a horse that goes forward in its races yet on this occasion the connections decided to drop him in. Obviously after such a bad fall in Ireland, priority should be that the horse comes home safe and sound but the fact is putting him in a competitve race where he is installed as one of the market leaders and watch him drift out alermingly before running a race you expect of some dodgy Irish trainer in a novice hurdle.

I've never been a Ferdy fan and wouldn't back one of his horses with stolen money so thats not an issue but had Kauto Star been pulled up 4 out at Aintree instead of putting up some fight I think the punter would have felt robbed.

You may think its okay to run it round jump fine and pull it up but end of the day you seem to make out you knew thnat was happenning. Now surely Ferdy should have made it public the horse is a fair bit behind in its work due to the weather and was not going to be knocked about and that the main fact was to give the horse some confidence in his jumping.

I perosnally dont have anything against running horses which need a run but Aces Four looked in need of 2 or 3 by the way he ran there and you say Nicholls horses have been needing their runs but at least Kauto Star and Mr Pointment and GUngadu ran honest races as you would expect first time out.
 
Hennessy entries aplenty in the 13.55 at Carlisle today. According To John, Caribou, Idle Talk & New Alco all making their seasonal reappearance.

At 7/2 New Alco looks a bit short given how the stables horses have needed their first run, although he has been supported to that mark and just under on Betfair. According To John for me to follow up his 3rd in the Sun Alliance behind Denman, even though he might want a bit more cut in the ground.
 
I wouldn't take it as a given that Aces four's poor performance was solely down to lack of fitness. He ran 2 fine races at Cheltenham and Aintree, but prior to that had given no real indication he was up to that level. I think there has to be a level of suspicion that he may never repeat that hot patch.
 
Certainly interesting race at Carlise today, indeed, Carlisle have a pretty fgood card for a Monday today, several interesting races.

I quite like Hard Act to follow in the Hennessy, obviously, it depends on weight etc.
 
Chris, he was dropped in to avoid getting into a battle with Ollie Magern, not because of his fitness and to suggest otherwise is nonsense I'm afraid, similarly is the assertion that Nicholls runs all his chasers over hurdles to get them fit.

Chris I'm fully aware you work in a yard as I am fully aware you did Dom, and therefore I am more than a little surprised by what you are saying. Let me ask you both a question? When you were at Channon's or Edgey's was there ever a period when horses ran below form or weren't 100%? If that coincided with early season, would you have thought it prudent to claim the horses weren't trying, and how would you have felt about it and responded if someone did suggest just that?

Both Channon and Edgey (in particularly) are known for not leaving a lot to work on and that may be why you have the train of thought you do, but quite simply Aces Four was fit enough to race in his first race of the season and simply blew up against better opposition than he'd faced before.

To claim you were a victim when backing him is absurd Dom. You've worked both sides of the fence and should be patently aware that Ferdy's horses are never particularly forward at this time of the year, and if you got your fingers burnt you only have yourself to blame.

To accuse the trainer of schooling the horse in public is both sensationalist and inaccurate, and probably isn't the wisest accusation to make on a public forum. Ferdy simply said 'like most of mine he may need the race'. Hardly the words of a trainer putting the betting public away in the way that Chris accuses in the opening line of his post. And certainly not the words you are trying to put in his mouth when you claim 'Let's not forget that Murphy & Hannity as good as said in the press that the horse wasn't fit and was expected to blow up anyway!'

I'm happy to go round in circles with this and debate it evermore, but I am telling you in absolute good faith you are wrong. You are not wrong simply because I say so, you are wrong because I'm telling you plain as day where connections believed they were with Aces Four going into the race, which was hopeful but also knowing he would come on for it. He blew up three out and they did not predict or expect that, but Ollie set a searching pace and it found him out.

By responding the way you do suggests you disbelieve me, which is your perogative, but I have no reason to defend Ferdy. I have no horses with him and am entirely neutral in that respect. What I do know are both the pubilc and private thoughts of connections prior to the race which were consistent and precisely what I said above. So I repeat once again, the horse was not schooled in public, he was simply beaten by better horses on the day.
 
Maruco I haven't worked in a yard for nearly 2 years;

At Channon's if the horses wern't right we didn't run them, most were turned out. we didn't run horses that were coughing or not right.

We tended to find our horses at the start of the season ran very well as they had done plenty of work and then eased off before coming back at the start of march very well in themselves or many had been to hotter climates to pay their way. The juveniles were usually looked after, anything that wanted 7f + wouldnt see the track until June and the speddy ones were out at the end of March. Our horses needed the run through greenness but Channon is one of a few trainers whose older horses run consistently well all season but the fact he doesnt have many to play with and some are too high in handicap is another matter.

I personally just think the fact that people think its okay to run a horse 60% or 70% fit is okay and its even better if the horse is ran out the back, or up with the pace, whatever but not really seriously asked a question.

Now watching According To John today I liked the way he tried to stay with the front two but once he couldnt was hands and heels to finish without having a hard time. Before the race it was made clear the horse was considered a spring horse and that there wernt many ideal races for him and that 2m 4f was on the short side for him.

New Alco won that race very well by doing his own thing up front. Now without being silly but Aces Four is in a different league to that horse so I raise the question why wasn't Aces Four targeted at something similar.

I personally think horses should at least run on merrit and if the fact is a horse isn't fit enough to finish a race then maybe the connections need approaching on why they ran in a race that the horse was clearly unable to take any real part in, especially when the said horse would be hard to beat in it if fully wound up.
 
Maruco - a couple of points.

Firstly, I have not at any point claimed to be a victim through backing the horse - you are making that one up! My point is that the horse was not off a yard, was going for a quiet run around and, more ot the point - connections got away with it despite as good as admitting to it! It's all one rule for one and one rule for another, which is ridiculous.

I have already quoted the RP from the Monday AFTER the Charlie Hall in which Hannity said they were expecting the horse to blow up - that was where I got that idea from, not through making it up as you have inferred.

Actually, you've got the wrong end of the stick with regards to Edgy - he is very good at leaving something to work in with his horses but yes, he is also known for having one fit first time out or after a lay-off, where others fail miserably. Seriously Maruco, anyone who knows about Edgys and Channon's training regimes would not lump them together as they are not similar in the slightest! I'd also like to add that I have worked in or ridden out at upwards of half a dozen yards [actually make that nearer 10], all employing differing methods, so I'm not as wet behind the ears as you may think!

Your point about the yard being under the weather, so leading to possible accusations of schooling in public, doesn't make any sense. The yard isn't under the weather, they've been having winners and placed horses, that isn't the subect being debated. Everything I have put is to do with ONE horse, Aces Four, being sent to the races patently unfit, having had a nice school around before being pulled up, and being put away for another day. That is the situation as I see it.

Out of curiousity, particularly as a non-owner in the yard, what makes you think that what you are being told by connections is gospel?! It's well known that trainers have a habit of not telling their owners what is going on with their own horse at times!! It's not very likely anyone would come out and admit to pulling one, is it?
 
More to the point if Aces Four wins the Hennessy I would love to hear about the massive improvement in fitness in 5 weeks and that the race put him spot on bollox.
 
Firstly Aces four won't run in The Hennessy so I'll put that one to bed straight away, and to make the statement is both ill-informed and ludicrous. You also say,

'Now watching According To John today I liked the way he tried to stay with the front two but once he couldnt was hands and heels to finish without having a hard time. Before the race it was made clear the horse was considered a spring horse and that there wernt many ideal races for him and that 2m 4f was on the short side for him.'

So you say that's ok. Perhaps you can tell me how that is different then? Do you have an axe to grind here?

Dom please don't put words into my mouth. I didn't say Ferdy had a problem in the yard. I used an example to suggest why you would be unhappy if criticism was levelled at you unfairly which is the case here. Most of Ferdy's are short of their best at this time of the year which is there for anyone with more than half an eye to see. What's more he's open enough to say so before racing not afterwards, as did the owner very publically on channel 4, which is hardly putting punters away. No different to Paul Nicholls or Alan King who have both said the same things recently and have had any number of reversals with hotpots in the last month. Also Niall Hannitty did not say they were 'expecting' Aces Four to 'blow up' in The Racing Post. Stop using poetic license to fit your argument. Perhaps you would like to reproduce the extract word for word?!

I am also not lumping Channon and Edgey together. Yourself and Chris are known for working in those two yards (seprerately), so it is not unreasonable to mention them as examples, and as such I clearly cannot be suggesting you are green behind the ears. You in fact are suggesting I am with your last paragraph.
You don't know me well, but there are one or two others here who do and I can assure you the last thing I am is naieve, far from it. Although I suspect you already know that.

I will finally add that you cannot begin to imagine how far wide of the mark your last paragraph is, but I have to concede it was a fantastic effort as cheap shots go.
 
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