Hennessy Entries

Originally posted by chrisbeekracing@Nov 12 2007, 04:45 PM
More to the point if Aces Four wins the Hennessy I would love to hear about the massive improvement in fitness in 5 weeks and that the race put him spot on bollox.
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Chris,

you need to clarify whether you thought Aces Four was patently unfit and that the misdemeanor was running him knowing he'd blow up badly and be looked after, or whether you believe he was deliberately pulled at Wetherby. You appear to be mixing both arguments in your posts.

For what it's worth, my view is that schooling in public, giving a horse an easy with a view to obtaining a lenient handicap mark and stopping a horse from winning are three separate issues (if you undertand the former to be done without aiming to either lower the handicap mark or obtain a bigger price next time out). The second is a serious offence and should be punished by fines and month long bans and the third should be a warning off offence. Lumping the scenarios together is misleading.


I am perfectly happy with the introduction Aces Four was given at Wetherby as there was no subterfuge involved. The horse was badly in need of the run and wasn't persevered with after he blew up. Essentially this bolied down to a schooling exercise, and I'm aware that this is in itself an offence but have outlined above why I consider it isn't the scandal it's painted as.

Connections were upfront about Aces Four's lack of race fitness pre race. The horse will not be leniently treated by the handicapper as a result. He will also not be sent off at inflated odds next time he runs. Punters who backed Aces Four do not deserve sympathy as both the pattern of his racing and the comments of his connections indicated that he was a poor betting medium. Pointing out that many punters bet blind (that they have no access to a Racing Post is the most laughable argument I've ever heard since every betting shop in the country has the RP both on display and on demand) shows how they should be held in contempt. Asking for blind punters to be protected is absolutely akin to asking for protection for people who wander into traffic.

Regarding fitness, can I be so bold as to suggest that a horse can be physically fit but not aerobically fit? That is, the notion that running a horse when unfit is likely to cause or exacerbate injuries is less true than when running a grossly unfit horse (a horse who is physically unconditioned).
 
To save arguments ~ here is the actual quote from Niall Hannity cut and pasted from the Post:

"We knew that, like all our horses, he would blow up first time out, so Graham did the sensible thing and looked after him.
"Statistics show that Charlie Hall winners win nothing afterwards, so we were more than happy with how he went and also with how he jumped.
"He'll now get an entry for the Betfair Chase, and we'll also put him in the Peterborough Chase on the same day, just in case it comes up heavy at Haydock. After that it will be the King George, which has always been his mid-season target.
"How he goes at Kempton will help us decide whether we aim for the Gold Cup or the Ryanair at Cheltenham."
 
Statistics show that Charlie Hall Chase winners win nothing afterwards.

a) whats that got to do with it ?

b) wrong

1988 High Edge Grey 7 Tim Reed Ken Oliver
1989 Durham Edition 11 Alan Merrigan Arthur Stephenson
1990 Celtic Shot 8 Peter Scudamore Charlie Brooks
1991 Celtic Shot 9 Graham Bradley Charlie Brooks
1992 Tipping Tim 7 Carl Llewellyn Nigel Twiston-Davies
1993 Barton Bank 7 Adrian Maguire David Nicholson
1994 Young Hustler 7 Carl Llewellyn Nigel Twiston-Davies
1995 Barton Bank 9 Adrian Maguire David Nicholson
1996 One Man 8 Richard Dunwoody Gordon W. Richards
1997 One Man 9 Richard Dunwoody Gordon W. Richards
1998 Strath Royal 12 Martin Brennan Owen Brennan
1999 See More Business 9 Mick Fitzgerald Paul Nicholls
2000 See More Business 10 Mick Fitzgerald Paul Nicholls
2001 Sackville 9 David Casey Frances Crowley
2002 Marlborough 10 Mick Fitzgerald Nicky Henderson
2003 Ballybough Rasher 8 Graham Lee Howard Johnson
2004 Grey Abbey 10 Graham Lee Howard Johnson
2005 Ollie Magern 7 Carl Llewellyn Nigel Twiston-Davies
2006 Our Vic 8 Timmy Murphy David Pipe
2007 Ollie Magern 9 Paddy Brennan Nigel Twiston-Davies
 
Great to see some of those names. Some real old favourites there and what a roll of honour.

I'd also forgotten just how succesful NTD had been in the race. Tipping Tim and Young Hustler back in the early nineties were big winners for him early in his career. Amazing to think how long Carl Llewellyn rode for him too. I'm trying to think what his first big race winner would have been actually and the old brain cells are deserting me.

Looking at that list of winners also brings back fond memories of The Duke, Gordon Richards and Arthur Stephenson.
 
Rory I am of the opinion that the connections knew Aces Four wasn't fit enough to win the Charlie Hall Chase and ran him knowingly.

That is what annoys me, that a horse was running in a race that connections knew they wouldn't be winning because there horse was not fit enough to do itself justice.
 
Maruco[/i]@Nov 12 2007 said:
So you say that's ok. Perhaps you can tell me how that is different then? Do you have an axe to grind here?
[/b]
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It is different because Tony Dobbin made an effort to give his horse every chance of winning but looked after his horse once it had gone.

Aces Four was burried in the rear and not at one stage was he put in with a squeak of winning the race. The minute he came under pressure he was pulled out. Yes this was down to the horses lack of fitness and the horses well being is paramount but I don't agree with running horses if they are too unfit to finish the race or obtain a creditable position.
 
Maruco - the quote that Rory posted was the same one that I posted earlier on in this thread; indeed the quote that led me to comment on the running of the horse in the first place! That is also where I got my comments from - poetic licence doesn't come into it.

I don't think you are naive either - I didn't say that. Nor was my last paragraph a cheap shot - it is, sadly, a fact. It is often the case that the owners themselves don't know what it going on with their own horses.

To clarify (as suddenly it's popping up that I'm defending the poor punter when I haven't said that!!) my opinion is that the horse was run in the Charlie Hall with the express purpose of giving him a little pop round, letting him jump a few fences whilst also getting bit of a gallop into him, and then pulling him up. The horse was not, in my opinion, fit enough to do himself justice competing in a Grade 2 chase. Now, the beef I have is that some people it appears, are allowed to do so [nevermind that it is against the rules, but as Rory says, not a hanging offence] - whereas others, if they attempt it, get the book thrown at them. As an example, Nick Gifford and Timmy Murphy were done in a bumper on Friday - this seems bizarre enough to me as with the types Nick Gifford gets, what would he have to gain by pulling one in a bumper? Is he trying to protect its chase rating three seasons hence?! Aren't bumpers supposed to be an education to young horses as well?

Anyway, back to the race in question - as I have also said one or two times, there are the increased chances of injuring a horse when running it when it isn't fit. Again, I'm not talking about when they're needing the run, I'm talking about when they aren't fit enough to do themselves justice, which I believe to be the case here. Maruco, you and I aren't going to agree on this one I'm afraid - I'm not going to change my view that the horse wasn't fit enough to compete in a race and I doubt that you are going to change yours either!

EDIT - now I've seen Chris' last post, I agree with his last sentence. IMO a horse should not be sent to the races if the trainer believes the horse is not fit enough to either finish or get competitive. It is my belief this is what happened here. So, give the horse another few weeks before running it and a few more gallops - that's what everyone else has to do!
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Nov 12 2007, 03:36 PM
Maruco - a couple of points.

Firstly, I have not at any point claimed to be a victim through backing the horse - you are making that one up!
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Surely not the same Ms Leader who posted this on Nov 3rd

"I'm still not especially convinced over State Of Play, tbh. I think he's plenty short enough for the race.

Like Steve, Aces Four is the one I like and cannot get away from. For one reason or another half the field are horses I've not taken to or am convinced by; realistically Ollie Magern cannot be put up as you'd be taking an enormous leap of faith on old form that he hasn't reproduced for a while and he is a ridiculously short price".
 
Warbler - show me where I have ever claimed to be a victim through backing the horse. You'll be looking a bloody long time as I haven't said it.

My comments are entirely concerning my view of how the race was run - and FWIW, I know plenty of judges who agree with me, professionals amongst those.

Can anyone tell me why there is one rule for some trainers and some for others? This was one of the most blatant cases I've seen in a long time. Even Rory, in his defence of Ferdy, has admitted that the horse was more than likely schooling!!!
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Nov 13 2007, 09:07 PM
Even Rory, in his defence of Ferdy, has admitted that the horse was more than likely schooling!!!
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That should read "eloquent and convincing defence"
 
...except you'd struggle to get him off in a court of law with your assertions that "Essentially this bolied down to a schooling exercise, and I'm aware that this is in itself an offence but have outlined above why I consider it isn't the scandal it's painted as." :p
 
Originally posted by Warbler+Nov 13 2007, 05:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Warbler @ Nov 13 2007, 05:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Shadow Leader@Nov 12 2007, 03:36 PM
Maruco - a couple of points.

Firstly, I have not at any point claimed to be a victim through backing the horse - you are making that one up!
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Surely not the same Ms Leader who posted this on Nov 3rd

"I'm still not especially convinced over State Of Play, tbh. I think he's plenty short enough for the race.

Like Steve, Aces Four is the one I like and cannot get away from. For one reason or another half the field are horses I've not taken to or am convinced by; realistically Ollie Magern cannot be put up as you'd be taking an enormous leap of faith on old form that he hasn't reproduced for a while and he is a ridiculously short price". [/b][/quote]
:D

Come, come Dom if the argument revolves around the semantics of the word "victim" then I think most people can make their own minds up whether or not Maruco had grounds to believe that you might have backed the horse based on what you posted. For the life of me I can't imagine what other possible interpretation he could have put on it? Now I realise you're endorsement doesn't necessarily have to equate with a decision to support it with cash, and you could of course have changed your mind, or pursuing an altogether more disingenious agenda, but you clearly indicate that you think Aces Four is the horse that will win the Charlie Hall (the thread is entitled "Saturdays Racing on Nov 3rd). With this in mind, it is surely not unreasonable for Maruco to suggest that you might be talking through your pocket, its a logical conclusion to arrive at. I for one am prepared to accept that you aren't (and for what its worth I suspect Maruco would agree) but it would equally have been legitimate for him to have raised the possibility in light of what you posted.
 
I really don't know what all the fuss is about.

To some , Ferdy Murphy and other ahem "astute" trainers are heroes . You never know when their horses will miraculously "discover" their form.

We know that horses are not machines , but let's be quite clear that some trainers are more forthcoming than others. Some see an obligation to the betting public to inform them , and some have an obligation to ensuring that the connected people get on at the right time.

That is why when we took our decision to place our horse with a trainer , we deliberately avoided those trainers who were considered "betting yards".

This has meant that our horse (who is entered for The Hennessy I may add) is considered in very good form and I have no idea whether or not to back him at Newbury. What I will say is that this has been his target for the last 6 months and the trainer continues to be very happy with him.

Because of his handicap mark (over hurdles and fences) it has been difficult to find him a prep race but there was never any consideration of him running in a 2 mile hurdle in order to have him spot on at Newbury. The one thing our trainer has always said is that he runs when he is 100 % fit.

That will do for me.
 
Which horse is this?

My horses only run when there is a suitable race and I don't believe in running them when they or the race isn't right.

My 2yo filly could have run 3 or 4 time sthis year but she has been growing and has had a couple of minor setbacks. She will benefit from the break and the plan is to come back for a little 8 - 10f maiden on the all weather in February. If she is still weak we will again be patient.

I hate trainers who run horses unfit and risk injury and I think they deserve to do crap and get their stars injured, its pure incompetance. Unfortunately its only the Ownver that really suffers.
 
I noted in the Racingpost today that Nicholls referred to the “Irish horses licking their lips at taking on Denman at the weights”. First horse that struck me was Snowy Morning…I wonder has Mr Walsh passed on to PN that his Irish boss quite fancies Snowy Morning to run a big race?
 
Originally posted by gordhogg@Nov 13 2007, 11:35 PM
We know that horses are not machines , but let's be quite clear that some trainers are more forthcoming than others. Some see an obligation to the betting public to inform them , and some have an obligation to ensuring that the connected people get on at the right time.
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Gord,

I paid a four figure sum in March to spend Champion Chase day with a couple of friends in luxury in a private facility where your trainer officially marked our card (for a fee, naturally). Some of my party felt slightly aggrieved by his assertion that he wasn't saddling a runner in the first race when they saw him accepting the trophy afterwards! That's what I call seeing an obligation to the betting public :what:
 
The weights are out!! Will go up at least a stone.

Kauto Star (FR) 7 11-12 P F Nicholls 179
12121-3 Exotic Dancer (FR) 7 11-5 Jonjo O'Neill 172
2/11111- Denman (IRE) 7 10-8 P F Nicholls 161
26F01- Neptune Collonges (FR) 6 10-8 P F Nicholls 161
51/164-2 State of Play 7 10-7 Evan Williams 160
534200- L'ami (FR) 8 10-5 F Doumen 80
05/U40-1 Ollie Magern 9 10-4 N A Twiston-Davies 157
14030-1 Forget The Past 9 10-2 M J P O'Brien 155
344R5-3 Monkerhostin (FR) 10 10-1 P J Hobbs 154
11R416 Iron Man (FR) 6 10-0 P Bowen 153
2312P0- Juveigneur (FR) 10 9-13 N J Henderson 152
0/4602-5 Kingscliff (IRE) 10 9-13 R H Alner 152
2300U-1 Knowhere (IRE) 9 9-12 N A Twiston-Davies 73
53103-4 Madison Du Berlais (FR) 6 9-12 D Pipe 151
F21151- Another Promise (IRE) 8 9-11 Ferdy Murphy 150
PP/2PF4- Crozan (FR) 7 9-11 N J Henderson 72
1210P-P Turko (FR) 5 9-11 P F Nicholls 151
521111- Offshore Account (IRE) 7 9-10 C F Swan 149
431103- Dom d'Orgeval (FR) 7 9-9 D Pipe 148
6UUUU-2 Idle Talk (IRE) 8 9-9 D McCain Jnr 148
1F21U-1 L'Antartique (FR) 7 9-9 Ferdy Murphy 148
P3F53-6 Slim Pickings (IRE) 8 9-8 T J Taaffe 147
1211F-3 Gungadu 7 9-7 P F Nicholls 146
15/122-4 Mr Pointment (IRE) 8 9-7 P F Nicholls 146
31-1320 Always Waining (IRE) 6 9-6 P Bowen 145
43/2P0P- Kill Devil Hill (IRE) 7 9-6 Paul Nolan 148
0B/P11-5 Alderburn 8 9-5 H D Daly 144
U1F1-00 Alexander Taipan (IRE) 7 9-5 W P Mullins 144
0P-2003 Joaaci (IRE) 7 9-5 D Pipe 144
530PP-1 Naunton Brook 8 9-5 N A Twiston-Davies 144
PP5P11- Baron Windrush 9 9-4 N A Twiston-Davies 143
121124- Snowy Morning (IRE) 7 9-4 W P Mullins -
11326/4 Strong Flow (IRE) 10 9-4 D T Hughes 161
124361- Dream Alliance 6 9-3 P J Hobbs 142
302P2P- Kelami (FR) 9 9-3 F Doumen 144
12U50P- Patsy Hall (IRE) 7 9-3 A J Martin 142
0/21264- Wild Cane Ridge (IRE) 8 9-3 L Lungo 142
2U/1PP2- D'Argent (IRE) 10 9-2 A King 141
25F0P-1 Mossbank (IRE) 7 9-2 M Hourigan 140
13F2-0 Point Barrow (IRE) 9 9-2 P Hughes 142
11443-5 According To John (IRE) 7 9-1 N G Richards 140
P062-16 Ardaghey (IRE) 8 9-1 N A Twiston-Davies 140
32260-1 New Alco (FR) 6 9-1 Ferdy Murphy 140
2341-11 Abragante (IRE) 6 9-0 D Pipe 139
253-550 Boychuk (IRE) 6 9-0 P J Hobbs 139
3/PP105- Copsale Lad 10 9-0 N J Henderson 139
0P/1F1F- Fair Question (IRE) 9 9-0 Miss Venetia Williams 139
601111 French Accordion (IRE) 7 9-0 Paul Nolan 131
6P/420F- Bewleys Berry (IRE) 9 8-13 J Howard Johnson 138
0P050-5 Black Apalachi (IRE) 8 8-13 D T Hughes 123
2P64P/0 Comply Or Die (IRE) 8 8-13 D Pipe 138
2056P-2 Fundamentalist (IRE) 9 8-13 N A Twiston-Davies 138
111P/1- Hard Act To Follow (IRE) 8 8-13 J Howard Johnson 138
35-3125 Moulin Riche (FR) 7 8-13 F Doumen 132
1/11400- Newman Des Plages (FR) 6 8-13 Jonjo O'Neill 138
1221-0 Black Hills 8 8-12 J A Geake 59
22411-P Caribou (FR) 5 8-12 O Sherwood 138
114U0-4 Chelsea Harbour (IRE) 7 8-12 Thomas Mullins 134
P20PP0- Sir Rembrandt (IRE) 11 8-12 V R A Dartnall 137
361315- Heez A Dreamer (IRE) 7 8-11 Miss Venetia Williams 136
2011F-0 Heltornic (IRE) 7 8-11 M Scudamore 136
06045P- Nirvana Du Bourg (FR) 6 8-11 Miss Venetia Williams 136
1/2113-P An Accordion (IRE) 6 8-10 D Pipe 135
141201- Aztec Warrior (IRE) 6 8-10 Miss H C Knight 135
216P12/ Eric's Charm (FR) 9 8-10 O Sherwood 135
14/P11F- Limited Edition (IRE) 9 8-10 C Llewellyn 135
21565-2 Merdeka (IRE) 7 8-10 T J Taaffe 126
111226/ Red Devil Robert (IRE) 9 8-10 Not Specified 135
21412P- Character Building (IRE) 7 8-9 J J Quinn 134
1/P13PF- Nadover (FR) 6 8-9 C J Mann 134
122-505 Lankawi 5 8-8 P Bowen 133
61201B- Cloudy Lane 7 8-7 D McCain Jnr 132
01U0-10 Irish Raptor (IRE) 8 8-7 N A Twiston-Davies 132
606P-04 St Matthew (USA) 9 8-7 Mrs S J Smith 132
0F51P-3 Back To Bid (IRE) 7 8-6 N Meade 124
1/60211- Bible Lord (IRE) 6 8-6 Andrew Turnell 131
06P60-0 Nitrat (FR) 6 8-6 F Doumen 131
43/02-22 Pak Jack (FR) 7 8-5 R T Phillips 130
0662/1F- Not Left Yet (IRE) 6 8-4 D Pipe 129
65-612F Bowleaze (IRE) 8 8-2 R H Alner 127
P0P-050 Openide 6 8-2 B W Duke 127
24/4215- Snakebite (IRE) 7 8-1 C Llewellyn 126
3U0-504 Classic Capers 8 7-12 J M Jefferson 123
11/3F51- High Chimes (IRE) 8 7-12 Evan Williams 123
413162 Two Miles West (IRE) 6 7-12 Jonjo O'Neill 123
1PP11-0 See You There (IRE) 8 7-10 Miss Lucinda Russell 121
 
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