simmo
Senior Jockey
Surely the Catalans and the Kurds deserve a recognised vote now.
Self determination for all people.
Self determination for all people.
Independence Votes
- Thread starter simmo
- Start date
most stupid post ever in this forum
you dont have a fuckin´ idea of what is happening here
the band of thiefs , extreme left and anarquist trying a coup detat in spain will be jailed very soon
simmo
Senior Jockey
700,000 people on the streets seems a bit more than just the "extreme left and anarchists" to me.
All I would like to see is a recognised vote on the matter - why shouldn't people have a right to self determination? The same goes for the Kurds in Iraq, Turkey and elsewhere.
All I would like to see is a recognised vote on the matter - why shouldn't people have a right to self determination? The same goes for the Kurds in Iraq, Turkey and elsewhere.
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
Nationalism (the type hidden under the cloak of 'self-determination') is a retrograde step, imo. The world is becoming more, not less, connected, and artificial borders are rendered increasingly irrelevant - creating even more of them is inherently the wrong thing to do, imo.
In the case of Spain, if reports are true, it very-much looks like it's an illegal referendum - one which has been appallingly badly-handled by the Spanish Government. Their tactics will do more to deliver the outcome they don't desire, rather than the one they do - a scenario typical of many Governments around the world, which appear to be run by incompetent idiots, who can't see the wood for the trees.
Those in the security forces responsible for the violence should rightly be called to account for their actions, but the Catalan Government is taking advantage of the situation, in a way I personally find unacceptable.
Referenda of this nature are generally held under consent, because it is not only the break-away jurisdiction which is affected by the outcome.
As a matter of principle, the 'other side(s)' must give consent, as they are equally as affected by any change in an existing arrangement. To dismiss their view as irrelevant, is morally unjustifiable, imo. As far as I can tell, there is no political or legal mandate for this referendum, and holding it in the first place, was an act of wilful provocation on the part of the Catalan government. A declaration of independence can only add fuel to the situation, and would be a grossly-irresponsible thing to do.
PS. I will happily defer to suny, if I have anything wrong. He is obviously much-closer to the situation than me, and I don't claim any particular insight into how the current situation has come about.
Edit: I might add that there is a danger in Scotland (or certain Scottish Independence campaigners, anyway) aligning themselves closely with the Catalan cause. If they ever do gain independence, Rest-of-Spain would veto their joining the EU, which will cripple any nascent Catalan state. The same veto might be used against a newly-independent Scotland (a near-term certainty in the post-Brexit world), if it is seen to support the Catalonian independence movement too strongly.
Be careful what you wish for.
In the case of Spain, if reports are true, it very-much looks like it's an illegal referendum - one which has been appallingly badly-handled by the Spanish Government. Their tactics will do more to deliver the outcome they don't desire, rather than the one they do - a scenario typical of many Governments around the world, which appear to be run by incompetent idiots, who can't see the wood for the trees.
Those in the security forces responsible for the violence should rightly be called to account for their actions, but the Catalan Government is taking advantage of the situation, in a way I personally find unacceptable.
Referenda of this nature are generally held under consent, because it is not only the break-away jurisdiction which is affected by the outcome.
As a matter of principle, the 'other side(s)' must give consent, as they are equally as affected by any change in an existing arrangement. To dismiss their view as irrelevant, is morally unjustifiable, imo. As far as I can tell, there is no political or legal mandate for this referendum, and holding it in the first place, was an act of wilful provocation on the part of the Catalan government. A declaration of independence can only add fuel to the situation, and would be a grossly-irresponsible thing to do.
PS. I will happily defer to suny, if I have anything wrong. He is obviously much-closer to the situation than me, and I don't claim any particular insight into how the current situation has come about.
Edit: I might add that there is a danger in Scotland (or certain Scottish Independence campaigners, anyway) aligning themselves closely with the Catalan cause. If they ever do gain independence, Rest-of-Spain would veto their joining the EU, which will cripple any nascent Catalan state. The same veto might be used against a newly-independent Scotland (a near-term certainty in the post-Brexit world), if it is seen to support the Catalonian independence movement too strongly.
Be careful what you wish for.
Last edited:
I was wondering if anyone was going to pick up on this. I also wonder if someone in the SNP hierarchy has told Nicola Sturgeon to shut her mouth. She can't have helped Scotland's chances one iota when seemingly aligning herself with Catalunya 3 days ago and calling the actions of Madrid out. She had better realise that if she wants to be an independent Scottish state in the EU then she's going to need the support of Spain who can kybosh her at a stroke and leave her completely high and dry. Spain also has allies in Europe, notably Italy. There's no way Scotland can take them on. Sturgeon isn't even a head of state, she doesn't attend the European Council, and there would be a few other countries such as Belgium who have fledgling separatist movements who wouldn't be wanting to offer them hope either. The SNP had better hope that Rajoy is gone by the time they ever need his support, and that Spanish conservatives don't have good memories
simmo
Senior Jockey
None of which addresses the fact that a sizeable number of people in Spain would like to legally vote on the matter but are having that desire repressed imo unnecessarily (and I'm sure it would be a quite different result from that already obtained).
Up with democracy, I say. Let them vote if there is a genuine desire to do so.
Up with democracy, I say. Let them vote if there is a genuine desire to do so.
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
None of which addresses the right of those Spaniards who aren't Catalan, to permit the vote to take place, or the fact that an independent-Catalonia would be economically in-tatters from the outset (their debt to the Spanish state alone would gub them, let alone what lack of EU trade access, would do to their economy).
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
If they so much as hinted at default it would push the Spanish bond prices through the roof as the primary debt transferred to Madrid, which would in turn expose countries under Target 2 with the flight from Spain. It's a non-starter, quite apart from the fact they're nowhere near meeting the requirements of entry into the Euro anyway
The other one Simmo flags (Kurdistan) is even more of a non-starter. Unlike Israel, which does at least have major sea ports, Kurdistan is landlocked and surrounded by hostile neighbours. Good luck!
There would have to be a strong likelihood that various Kurdish groups would also use the fledgling state as cover for their activities (think Lebanon). Quite how long Erdogan will sit back and allow this to happen is anyone's guess (but mine would be about 15 minutes!). Who is going to intervene then? and how? Any strong move against Turkey probably means NATO surrendering control of the Bosphurus to Russia (Germany have already pulled their airbase in the last 3 months and even the US have moved their nuclear arsenal out of Turkey now) so concerned are they about its drift into the Sunni sphere of influence. Turkey announced last week that they're banning the teaching of evolution in schools, so are clearly heading in a progressive direction
simmo
Senior Jockey
I don't agree that Spain should have a veto on whether or not Catalonia is entitled to a vote to decide their future. Why the **** should they? They're not Catalonian.
Edit: You've got 2.4m people who were prepared to break the law in order to be heard. To me it's a no-brainer that they are entitled to a recognised vote on the matter.
Last edited:
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
Fair enough, but worth remembering we had 17 million people vote to Leave the EU, despite the vast majority of them not knowing what that actually meant in practice.......and those that did know, didn't care.
Democracy is vastly over-rated. Sometimes 'the people' are full of sh*it.
Democracy is vastly over-rated. Sometimes 'the people' are full of sh*it.
Last edited:
Agree with that. Referendums are generally overrated. Too many people voting that simply do not have the ability or desire to really root out the issues. Brexit is the classic where on top of the original argument you had millions of inbreds being allowed to vote which cant be good. I see one of them trolling the chat forum occasionally.
My ex is Catalan and a year ago she would never have considered voting for secession. After the fun and games of the weekend you'd think she had transformed into a rabid Catalan nationalist.
What is clear is that the Spanish constitution does not allow for a vote of independence
What is also clear is that Rajoy is a 3rd rate wannabe leader with the odious stench of corruption scandals following him wherever he goes. His handling of this situation has been amateur hour of the worst kind.
He plays to the sentiment of rural ignorants and a segment of fascist Castillians who keep him in power, tenuous as it is.
28% in the last election is not an overwhelming mandate and his seat is only possible because he is tolerated by one of the secondary players Ciudadanos.
The Catalans have a legitimate beef when it comes to the distribution of monies generated by region. They definitely get the short end of the stick here
While I am sympathetic to their historical grievances I am against nationalism in any form and the fact that many Catalans were in the end afraid to express their opinions on keeping the status quo for fear of being abused at best verbally at worst physically does not help their cause in any way. A 42% voter turnout does not exactly inspire confidence either.
The Catalan government wants to officially start the secession process next Monday and the rattling of sabres from Madrid that they will do anything necessary to squash any secession action just shows the entrenchment the parties find themselves in. It should be noted that Puigdemont did extend a hand to Madrid after the vote which was sanctimoniously ignored by Rajoy.
Sadly the king went off on some sort of dark ramble with the echo of a Franco like incursion possibly around the corner. No mention of the violence that was widely propagated by the Guardia Civil.
Just another argument for getting rid of this useless monarchy. Long live the republic.
The 19th century American writer Ambrose Bierce defined Referendums thus:
A law for submission of proposed legislation to a popular vote to learn the nonsensus of public opinion
First of all
Cataluña has always been part of Spain and has not been a country any time in history
it is a part of Spain, a country with something name constitution, the laws we were given to us in full freedom
that constitution can be changed , but with the rules it is stipulated in it, and with the votes of all the people afected by the decisions we take, (spaniards)
the farse of last sunday was not a referendum , it was ilegal, there were no cense, some people voted 10 times......
about Cataluña, it is a former rich part of the country in clear downgrade thanks to the extreme left politic of recent times and the corruption of the former president Puyol, he is the godfather in cataluña, diffcult to think of someone in Europe in the last 100 years to steal thousends of millions of pounds
it is a region with a level of autonomy with no equal in Europe
this is an artificial farse created by Puyol party not to go to jail and they have been joined by anarquist of CUP (similar to ETA) and ERC, extreme left party
BReandar
La guardia civil is the best police in europe and what happened on sunday was a joke, the lack of force and contundece to fight this rubissh of anarquist was the biggest mistake of Rajoy
Abut Rajoy, it is not a great prime minister but is the most voted by far here and the other party to support it ( ciudadanos) is the only other serious one we have here
about the independence
it is obvious they would be sacked of the EU and teh region would become Albania
the pensions would not be paid and the new courts would save the Puyol country of their corruption cases
This catalonian politics make look Farage like Winston Churchill
Cataluña has always been part of Spain and has not been a country any time in history
it is a part of Spain, a country with something name constitution, the laws we were given to us in full freedom
that constitution can be changed , but with the rules it is stipulated in it, and with the votes of all the people afected by the decisions we take, (spaniards)
the farse of last sunday was not a referendum , it was ilegal, there were no cense, some people voted 10 times......
about Cataluña, it is a former rich part of the country in clear downgrade thanks to the extreme left politic of recent times and the corruption of the former president Puyol, he is the godfather in cataluña, diffcult to think of someone in Europe in the last 100 years to steal thousends of millions of pounds
it is a region with a level of autonomy with no equal in Europe
this is an artificial farse created by Puyol party not to go to jail and they have been joined by anarquist of CUP (similar to ETA) and ERC, extreme left party
BReandar
La guardia civil is the best police in europe and what happened on sunday was a joke, the lack of force and contundece to fight this rubissh of anarquist was the biggest mistake of Rajoy
Abut Rajoy, it is not a great prime minister but is the most voted by far here and the other party to support it ( ciudadanos) is the only other serious one we have here
about the independence
it is obvious they would be sacked of the EU and teh region would become Albania
the pensions would not be paid and the new courts would save the Puyol country of their corruption cases
This catalonian politics make look Farage like Winston Churchill
The King did , what 90% of spanish people want
we dont want to negociate nothing with this people and what the laws are followed by all of us
he was perfect yesterday
it doesnt matter if they are 700k or 2 million
they can not decide nothing that affect the rest of the country by themselves
False
they are being treated economically better than should
about the republics
I like the Bush, Kennedys and Clinton dynasties
People like Hollande ruling France
or how it works in Cuba, Venezuela or China
About Rajoys corruption cases
you are right , it is the only case in history and the only country in what has happened a case of ilegal finaciation of a party
teh rest of parties here have never happened
and the same in France , Germany or rest of countries
this is a joke!!
Democacry is about the one who is going to be less worse for the people
and we are very happy with our third rate wannabe leader
the alternatives are fifth rate ones!!!!
Sorry Suny but you are talking utter nonsense as it relates to the economy of Catalonia.
On almost any metric it exceeds the rest of Spain starting in 2012 and since the end of 2013 GDP growth has been stronger than the rest of the EU including the rest of Spain. 2015 numbers were the strongest since 2007.
The rest of Spain would suffer big time without this part of the economy. Catalonia would most likely not prosper either with a split or at least it is difficult to see today.
As for the King's speech I'm surprised he did not mandate an official observation of the Falange on November 20.
Spain has a population of around 47 million with Catalonia, Valencia community, Basque countries and the Balearics comprising almost 16 million which is a little less that 40%.
It's a stone cold certainty that nowhere near 90% of the people in these regions alone thought the king was "perfect".
The Guardia civil the best police force in Europe. Dear oh dear.
Calling decent working people, men women and children anarchist rubbish is a sad indictment of the times we live in.
The list goes on and on.
Calling PP the by far most voted party is a joke. They got 28% to PSOE's 22% with Podemos at almost 21%
They lost 16% compared to the previous election.
Did you know that the national football team has never played a match in Camp Nou.
Did you also know that the infrastructure budget for Catalonia in 2015 was the lowest since these records have been kept (1997). Which regions benefited most. Andalucia, Castille and Leon and Galicia.
Cataloniia's GDP is almost 4/5 of those 3 regions
Why would you downplay Rajoy's corruption scandals on the one side but make a big deal about a regional government's similar scandals.
The party that is keeping Rajoy afloat Ciudadanos, ironically originating in Catalonia, made a big deal before the election about never supporting PP if Rajoy stayed (due to the scandals) and then caved when it was clear they might get a shot at governing.
Until recently I always thought I would die in Spain. The Spanish people I have met (admittedly most of those in Catalonia) are optimistic, progressive and for the most part proud citizens.
Rajoy has done a **** poor job as the head of the country and Puigdemont has also his burden to carry for fueling the flames of nationalist fervor.
But to allow the national police to club men and women and spray rubber bullets into crowds for wanting to cast a ballot goes far beyond my understanding of democratic principles.
It's the 60's all over again. What's next? Tanks on the Diagonal.
Regions like Madrid aport much more to the economy with less returns,
it is obvious you are not very well informed about the spanish economy
I dont know what you put Baleares or Valencia in that list
even cataluña, independentist are not majority,
it is obvious the owners of the companys and civilised people is not acting in the streets like nazis, that is the job of the anaraquist and their young extrem left delinquents
the King was perfect
he said he wanted the law to be done
when you see someone robbing a bank, or someone kidnapping a baby, what do you have to dialogue with them
I dont know what has the king in common with Falange
your ex catalain boyfriend did tell some bizarre things
about Guardia Civil, it is obvious you dont know nothing abut Spain
about Civil working people what is on the streeets or trying to go an ilegal pseudoreferedum........
the people fighting the police in the streets are delinquents
and it is obvious they are not going to work tomorrow, in fact they made an ilegal strike not to allow the people to go to work yesterday
About the infrasctuture
It is obvious you dont know nothing
Do you know they have AVE (high speed train) for years and years
Do you remember a city not being the capital which has hosted and olimpics (Barcelona 92)
About the Nou Camp, of course they dont play there, the atmosphere this nazis have created dont allow it
They have special treatment in the spanish paliment and have much more memeber with the same level of votes tan in any other place of spain
And they are so stupid they are not allowing to speak in spanish to the kids in the public schools
Rajoys party corruptions scandal are on courts and they have paid a lot for them.
Sadly the other parties are even worse
Socialist affairs are much bigger in quantitie and quality
Podemos are being paid by IRan and Venezuela and what they are doing in places liek Madrid and BVarcelona has to be seen to be believed
And nationalist makes level of coruption difficult to believe
Democratic princicles is what we have here , I know some people is so naive that thinks pólice should treat with roses and teddybears with deliquents, but sadly thats not the case.
and Rajoy has been a disaapoitningmet but is doing a much better job tan the inept precvoous one (zapatero who was president thanks to a terrosit and attac) and the alternatives we have, especially with Podemos.
When you say progressive, I dont if take as an insult, tell me
60s….. yes some people still believes in John Lenon, as I see
Tanks in the diagonal?
In if it is necessary YES, and the catalán goverment in jail of course
