If it happens what?
Independence Votes
- Thread starter simmo
- Start date
The EU wouldn't dare eject Spain. Apart from anything else, they'd fall out of stability mechanism allowing them to renege on their debt and leaving the ECB and German banks and taxpayers in particular under the target 2 mechanism to pick up the pieces.
Look at the lengths Turkey has had to go to before the EU finally suspended any future application. The EU will look the other way, or at the very most, suspend Spain should they start shooting civilians dead, but they won't throw them out of the Euro for fear of where the current liabilities are
If Catalunya has allowed support from the EU to enter their thinking, then they've badly miscalculated
The EU already has problems with Poland and Hungary, not to mention Brexit, they aren't about to start showing Spain the door. Rajoy can pretty well do what he wants, and quite probably will
I realize English is not your first language but is also obvious that you simply are not capable of clear thought here.
You made the ridiculous assertion that I quote "Catalonia is a former rich part of the country in clear downgrade thanks to the extreme left politic of recent times and the corruption of the former president Puyol"
I put up growth numbers to refute that. Your response is just gibberish
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Words fail me here but rest assured I know a lot more about what goes on in Spain then you think. I don't speak only to Catalans but to others as well and there are enough of them appalled by this situation.
Big fan of John Lennon and not afraid to admit I guess that makes me a commie lover.
When you were still navigating the straits between your daddy's balls I was out in the world risking getting my ass shot off, for the land of the free and the home of the brave, in a far away land where reactionaries like yourself saw the communist bogeyman behind everybody reading Mao's red bible. All those people protesting that war wound up on the right side of history. Those that got 50000 or more killed for **** all not so much.
What can I say we live in the age of Trump where nativism and revanchism is the flavor of the times. Very sad.
Agree with the part of the Catalonian miscalculation if that is indeed the case but would be really worried if Franco's descendants wound up shooting people dead in the streets and the EU looked the other way because of potential forfeitures of Spanish debt. But again in the age of Trump I guess anything is possible.
When I was young, dumb and full of come ready to kick ass at the drop of a hat my favorite slogan was better dead than red. Didn't get me very far but I did not die either.
I take a more nuanced view of these things now but would not hesitate to pick up a weapon and use it if my life or that of my loved ones was threatened.
I take a more nuanced view of these things now but would not hesitate to pick up a weapon and use it if my life or that of my loved ones was threatened.
The nearest parallel is Northern Ireland, and there was never any suggestion that the EEC was ever going to eject the UK for the occasional extra judicial killing. A lot of it will depend on how any shootings occur in the fog of conflict, claim and counter claim.
Jean Claude Druncker might permit himself a case of Cava in solidarity at best, but I doubt even he's going to be crass enough to say there was trouble makers on both sides and some fine people in amongst the Falange
There is some provision I believe in the International Charter of Human Rights that has a commitment to the freedom of self determination. The EU is signatory but I doubt its strong enough as Spain would probably be able to argue that the Catalans already have this through democratic structures and devolved powers
The EU might send Spain a strongly worded memorandum, but that'll be about it.
It's probably worth remembering that Spain isn't the only member state with separatist movements humming away too, albeit the Spanish case is more organised than the others. There won't be much support for Catalunya within the European Council
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simmo
Senior Jockey
Another thought is the number of parts of Spain which have a significant independence movement - half the country seems to not want to be part of the whole.
I was slightly amused to see the following graffiti on my last visit to the Canary Islands.
Las Canarias es no Espana.
followed by
Ta Puta Madre.
I'm guessing that the second person disagreed. :lol:
I was slightly amused to see the following graffiti on my last visit to the Canary Islands.
Las Canarias es no Espana.
followed by
Ta Puta Madre.
I'm guessing that the second person disagreed. :lol:
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On another tangent I saw by chance that your friend Katie Hopkins made an impassioned plea for the Catalan cause in the Daily Fail a few days ago. Took me a good minute to come down from hyperventilating.
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I can only assume she sees it as a vehicle for breaking up the EU, possibly for the reasons I've speculated about, as there would be an issue of debt to resolve, which could go up the chain
so you speaks catalan
and you like John Lennon, I would like to know if you like him as a singer or as politician?
and finally Trump enters in the equation
I understand your position in this affair
Can you tell who are the Franco descendents?
Warbler, I find it impossible to imagine similar scenes in Edinburgh if the Scottish nationalist organised another referendum without London's say so.
People in Europe mightn't like what their governments are doing in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and elsewhere in far and distant lands but at the same time it all seems abstract. But when it comes to a place like Barcelona, which most of us have already visited, the public reaction is going to be different. Juncker and his colleagues cannot fail to pick up on that, they will have the same gut reaction themselves if Sunny's wet dream of tanks on the Diagonal comes to pass. I hope they are already doing what they can to make sure it doesn't happen.
People in Europe mightn't like what their governments are doing in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and elsewhere in far and distant lands but at the same time it all seems abstract. But when it comes to a place like Barcelona, which most of us have already visited, the public reaction is going to be different. Juncker and his colleagues cannot fail to pick up on that, they will have the same gut reaction themselves if Sunny's wet dream of tanks on the Diagonal comes to pass. I hope they are already doing what they can to make sure it doesn't happen.
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simmo
Senior Jockey
Did what again? Pointed out the obvious?
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
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Simmo, when it came to the IndyRef, I was of the opinion that you had to be Scottish, to really understand the fundamentals of the question of Independence.
In my view, 'economic migrants' (can't think of a better-term, but it's meant in a positive way) living in Scotland, did not possess the necessary historical context, to answer the question being posed. They are/were essentially ignorant of what it means to be Scottish, and the subtleties of 'Scottishness'. The ex-pat Scottish diaspora were far better-placed to answer the question, but were excluded from the vote - despite having the 'local knowledge' needed to properly answer it.
in the case of the current situation in Catalonia, I believe that 'local knowledge' means a lot, and affords a much-broader understanding of context, than is offered-up by news or social media.
How much do you really know about the situation over there? How can you get a 'feel' for how big an issue it is on the streets, and whether the protests you're seeing reflect that mood accurately or not? I think it's hard to get a true-read on things as an outsider, and in that scenario, it's hard to be dogmatic. The contributions from suny and brendanr have been very illuminating, and - for me, at any rate - demonstrate that things are never as black-and-white as they seem.
Beyond your fairly-crude use of the polling numbers as justification, it rather seems that your argument is for independence/separation/self-determination whatever the location, and whatever the cost. If that's genuinely the extent of it, then there isn't really anything anyone can say to convince you otherwise.
PS. suny, tanks on the streets is assuredly not the way to resolve anything. Mediation is the only way forward - though it might take the removal of the clowns leading the Spanish & Catalan parliaments, before it happens.
In my view, 'economic migrants' (can't think of a better-term, but it's meant in a positive way) living in Scotland, did not possess the necessary historical context, to answer the question being posed. They are/were essentially ignorant of what it means to be Scottish, and the subtleties of 'Scottishness'. The ex-pat Scottish diaspora were far better-placed to answer the question, but were excluded from the vote - despite having the 'local knowledge' needed to properly answer it.
in the case of the current situation in Catalonia, I believe that 'local knowledge' means a lot, and affords a much-broader understanding of context, than is offered-up by news or social media.
How much do you really know about the situation over there? How can you get a 'feel' for how big an issue it is on the streets, and whether the protests you're seeing reflect that mood accurately or not? I think it's hard to get a true-read on things as an outsider, and in that scenario, it's hard to be dogmatic. The contributions from suny and brendanr have been very illuminating, and - for me, at any rate - demonstrate that things are never as black-and-white as they seem.
Beyond your fairly-crude use of the polling numbers as justification, it rather seems that your argument is for independence/separation/self-determination whatever the location, and whatever the cost. If that's genuinely the extent of it, then there isn't really anything anyone can say to convince you otherwise.
PS. suny, tanks on the streets is assuredly not the way to resolve anything. Mediation is the only way forward - though it might take the removal of the clowns leading the Spanish & Catalan parliaments, before it happens.
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Things going to its way
the 2 big banks leaving the future paradise new country
companys running out of the region faster than Batassh in the PRix Abadia
polls of 80% in favour of kings speech
the images of last sunday were most of them false, less than 10 injured people in the hospital
this coup detat will finish on tuesday, after this lunatic declares the independence on monday
he will be jailed very soon
the 2 big banks leaving the future paradise new country
companys running out of the region faster than Batassh in the PRix Abadia
polls of 80% in favour of kings speech
the images of last sunday were most of them false, less than 10 injured people in the hospital
this coup detat will finish on tuesday, after this lunatic declares the independence on monday
he will be jailed very soon
tanks is the last thing, but welcome if needed
mediation? are you joking? what to talk about? more money? allow the corrupt leaders not go to prision? the current ones making a coup detat and not going to jail?
spanish and catalan parliments in the same level?
simmo
Senior Jockey
To answer the question - my argument is for self-determination - something which is being denied at present.
In the case of Catalunya, my feeling is that numbers from the illegal referendum would not be sufficient to obtain a majority in the event of a legal one.
But I believe that the opportunity to vote should be given.
PS - agree that Suny and Brendan's posts have been illuminating.
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Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
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I place them at around the same level as each other, based on their incompetent handling of this entire fiasco. That's a different thing to apportioning blame to one side or the other.
It's nice to see some voices of reason and common sense still exist out there even if it is just a horse racing forum.
As this seems to me to be an Irish centric place of conversation, in honor of Brian O'Nolan's recent birthday I'd offer up the following quote courtesy of Flann O'Brien.
“A wise old owl once lived in a wood, the more he heard the less he said, the less he said the more he heard, let's emulate that wise old bird".
Think that's what I'll do as relates to this particular topic.
As this seems to me to be an Irish centric place of conversation, in honor of Brian O'Nolan's recent birthday I'd offer up the following quote courtesy of Flann O'Brien.
“A wise old owl once lived in a wood, the more he heard the less he said, the less he said the more he heard, let's emulate that wise old bird".
Think that's what I'll do as relates to this particular topic.
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As we seem to be discussing things revolutionary I thought I should help cheer my good friend (Suny) up a little with an image of the new €1 stamp issued in Ireland yesterday.
I didnt think things were going so badly out there
talking seriously
what a pity there is a stamp of this assesin and disgacre for the world in your country