Irish Apprentice Title

Hamm said:
The only jockey who regularly wins Group races he shouldn't at the moment is Dettori. His rides on Shamardal and Lawman were a treat to watch. There will never be a better jockey from the front.
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They were 5 and 3 years ago respectively.
 
There are other examples as well closer to the present time of course - the reference to Shamardal and Lawman was linked to Dettori from the front, not to this season.
 
I agree with your view about him riding from the front - at his best he is immense but I cannot recall any such rides recently.
 
Can anyone remind me of the horse he won on in a handicap at Sandown last season? Many thought it a fantastic Dettori front-running ride.
 
Maybe we should change Will's question to the 'last jockey to legally make a difference' :mad:
 
Moore was the difference betweening winning and losing the Arc this year - through superior strength.

Good question though.
 
Hamm said:
Can anyone remind me of the horse he won on in a handicap at Sandown last season? Many thought it a fantastic Dettori front-running ride.
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Was it possibly Fanjura for Barry Hills? His win on Lady Hestia at Thirsk a couple of months ago was excellent too.
 
Finally have one! Guyon in the Prix du Jockey Club - outstanding ride - got across quickly (without taking anyone out a la Johnny), sat in behind and kicked clear what looked like too early but that move effectively won the race over 2 furlongs out.
 
Ardross said:
Richards was plainly the best
Breasley and Piggott were both top notch in the early 60s
Piggott was peerless from 1964-71 - true he was better than Carson but could not be arsed chasing round the country for more titles in the 70s .
Eddery was best or second best to Piggott in his pomp as was Cauthen and Mercer only won once when HRAC had an awesome year .

These were the best or top two or three jockeys though - something that cannot be said of Spencer, Sanders ,Darley or Hanagan
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Carson wasn't as good as Piggott therefore not the best when he was 'champion'.
Eddery was second best to Piggott.And so was Cauthen. So they weren't the best.
And Mercer only was champion because Cecil had a good year, so he wasn't really the best.

Don't see how 'being arsed chasing round the country' makes someone the 'best' either.
 
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Gamla Stan said:
Murtagh on Misty For Me
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Agree - him kicking her on around the bend was the winning of the race. I don't necessarily believe she will be a miler and I think her stamina was the winning of the race and Murtagh made very good use of it.
 
G-G said:
Carson wasn't as good as Piggott therefore not the best when he was 'champion'.
Eddery was second best to Piggott.And so was Cauthen. So they weren't the best.
And Mercer only was champion because Cecil had a good year, so he wasn't really the best.

Don't see how 'being arsed chasing round the country' makes someone the 'best' either.
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I accept that but my point is that over a period of 40 years only 7 jockeys won the championship . All of whom would have been regarded either as the best - Richards and Piggott- or the best around for some of their championships - Eddery and Cauthen - or in the top two or three - Breasley, Mercer and Carson .

Sanders, Hanagan, Darley and Spencer - do not even get that high . They barely squeak in the top five in their year.
 
chroniclandlord said:
Richards and Breasley were before my time but the others would almost certainley have been better than Saunders, Hannagan and Darley and probably more consistent than Spencer.
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Come on - even Carson was better than Spencer !

Richards and Breasley were well before my time too but by all accounts great great jockeys .
 
Id be in the Curtis camp in this race, think hel struggle to compete though from now until the end of the season. Carroll will have the Halford camp behind him for the run in, and even with Joseph missing them days, i think that he will get a winner a meeting at the remainder courtesy of his father, so it would put him in the 40s, which will be very hard to beat.
 
Ardross said:
I accept that but my point is that over a period of 40 years only 7 jockeys won the championship . All of whom would have been regarded either as the best - Richards and Piggott- or the best around for some of their championships - Eddery and Cauthen - or in the top two or three - Breasley, Mercer and Carson .

Sanders, Hanagan, Darley and Spencer - do not even get that high . They barely squeak in the top five in their year.
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I didn't mention any of the riders of today and am not expressing an opinion about any of them, or comparing them to past riders.

The fact that only 7 won championships over that number of years could also be down partly to the fact that most were retained by very prolific stables and as in the top five, were booked by other stables when free so had the choice of rides, and that the rest of the jockeys, who were in total number fewer than riding today, were perhaps not as good.
 
del boy said:
Id be in the Curtis camp in this race, think hel struggle to compete though from now until the end of the season. Carroll will have the Halford camp behind him for the run in, and even with Joseph missing them days, i think that he will get a winner a meeting at the remainder courtesy of his father, so it would put him in the 40s, which will be very hard to beat.
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What's his story ?
 
There is also a lot more rubbish racing these days which is why people like Sanders (No disrespect intended here) have won the title.
 
G-G said:
I didn't mention any of the riders of today and am not expressing an opinion about any of them, or comparing them to past riders.

The fact that only 7 won championships over that number of years could also be down partly to the fact that most were retained by very prolific stables and as in the top five, were booked by other stables when free so had the choice of rides, and that the rest of the jockeys, who were in total number fewer than riding today, were perhaps not as good.
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Piggott was freelance from 1966-1971. The Maestro !

Moreover I am far from sure they were not as good Duffield for example who got Group 1 rides in the 1990s did not get a sniff of one in the 1970s and early 80s . That definitely goes for NH where the jockeys are much improved
 
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Ardross said:
Piggott was freelance from 1966-1971. The Maestro !

Moreover I am far from sure they were not as good Duffield for example who got Group 1 rides in the 1990s did not get a sniff of one in the 1970s and early 80s . That definitely goes for NH where the jockeys are much improved
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I am not arguing about the merits of Piggott as a jockey. In my opinion only, he is the greatest jockey I have ever seen.

They who? Not sure what your point is about Duffield?
 
G-G said:
I am not arguing about the merits of Piggott as a jockey. In my opinion only, he is the greatest jockey I have ever seen.

They who? Not sure what your point is about Duffield?
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You made a point suggesting that in the old days there was less competition in relation to the top Flat jockeys .

The point I was making is that Duffield and indeed Darley ( in the 80s) were way down the pecking order in the 1970s and 1980s - they did not get Group 1 rides . In the 1990s they did .
 
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