Irish Derby Weekend

Gareth, you and Powerscourt suggested that the horse had the credentials to be in the race to win and wasn't a pacemaker as such.

Sorry, Rory, as you see I was responding to something that had been suggested in previous posts.

I can't say I'm a fan of pacemakers, as so often they totally feck up on the job anyway, but I do have a bit of a problem with a stable going in mob-handed, as it were.
 
Gareth, you and Powerscourt suggested that the horse had the credentials to be in the race to win and wasn't a pacemaker as such.
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I suggested no such thing. I explicitly agreed with you that Hindu Kush didn't have the form to win.
 
No probs.

What I was trying to get at was that there's almost always an O'Brien longshot that runs well above his known form. To the names of Alexander of Hales (33/1), Scorpion (25/1), Tycoon (150/1), Roosevelt (150/1) and Sholokhov (200/1) can be added the name Bashkirov (150/1), although sadly not enough for e/w backers.
 
Originally posted by rorydelargy+Jun 29 2008, 07:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rorydelargy @ Jun 29 2008, 07:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Colin Phillips@Jun 29 2008, 06:43 PM
Now I have to admit I haven't actually seen the race yet, but from what I've read I'd like to ask Powerscourt and Gareth Flynn if they think that Hindu Kush was ridden to achieve the best possible position?
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Jebus Colin, will you get off this hobby horse ~ Hindu Kush was a pacemaker. Using pacemakers is perfectly within the rules. The only issue is whether he materially interferes with the chances of another runner, which he didn't. Steering three wide off the bend to ensure a clear run for whomever is following is acceptable ~ Ryan Moore could easily have been there had he so wished. [/b][/quote]
I cant agree there Rory I think the plan or conspiracy worked the oracle for the yard someone of MURTAGH'S experience can handle a horse better than that surely if it was an apprentice you wouldn't mind...

Look at the race again and watch J-M change whip hands when both horses on his left side were making their challenge..............

And to rub salt into the wound NO BAN for J-M..... it stinks as far as I am concerned and needs further investigation................ :angy:
 
Yeah, Murtagh saw Frozen Fire out the back and knew he should plough through the opposition...putting his mount and the other horses at risk and possibly killing his friends in the weight room.

I am not usually one to rubbish someone's views but after reading this and some of the trash on TRF about Murtaghs ride I have to. If your suggesting Murtagh deliberately ran into the other horses then your talking absolute crap Merlin.
 
Harsh words, but fair comment; anyone who thinks that Murtagh deliberately steered AV to the left simply can't read a horserace, or doesn't understand that horses can become unsteerable as Alessandro Volta did today, for whatever reason.
 
Getting back to the racing, its begining to look as though a Ballydoyle 3 year old can not be assessed completely until after the Irish Classics. Its as if running at Newmarket and Epsom (though admittidly very important) is now been used as a real spring board for the rest of the season. Clearly they want to win those classics but as much emphasis is being put on them learning and developing from their runs.
 
The suggestion that Murtagh deliberately caused interference is absolutely ridiculous.

I can't for the life of me understand how he escaped a ban, however.
 
Originally posted by Headstrong@Jun 29 2008, 01:26 PM
As I said above, where it REALLY annoys me, the chance of my horse has NOT been increased by the withdrawal of a short priced favourite, in my mind, because I'd already decided that the short-odds horse was NOT going to win. I took 16/1 on my long shot, and I want THAT price, not some arbitrary price set after I've backed, due to something well overpriced not running!!
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So the small fact that, if the (for argument's sake) even money shot wasn't in the field of runners to start with, your selection wouldn't have been 16/1 in the first place (it would almost certainly have been a fair bit shorter without the presence of an even money shot) doesn't cross your mind??

As DJ has tried to point out - whether you think a short priced favourite is going to win or not, and whether or not you think yourself that the withdrawal of the favourite has no effect on the chances of your runner, the fact remains that mathematically the chance of your horse winning has most definitely increased in such a situation.

It's a complete no-brainer. Rule 4 deductions have to exist and those who say otherwise don't fully understand what constitutes making a book in the first place. Strangely enough I had this very conversation today with a well respected racing professional who knows quite a lot about the process and also agrees that saying rule 4s should be scrapped is ludicrous.
 
Watch the tape . Why did Murtagh whip his horse off the rail ? He had the rail uncontested , by far the shortest course . No jockey takes the long way voluntarily least of all the amazing jockey that is Johnny Murtagh . Answers to follow ? I'm sorry but I feel there were team tactics and that much should have been already proved when earlier in the race David M'Cabe on Hindu Kush who was following the rail clearly looked to his right , sighted Allesandro Volta and moved off the rail immediately . I love Ballydoyle but I think Tartan Bearer was robbed of his chance . Curtail Call would have been closer also. Bad taste , best horse might not have won .
Roll on the jumps season when this type of tactic is redundant !!!
 
Originally posted by solerina@Jun 29 2008, 09:31 PM
Watch the tape . Why did Murtagh whip his horse off the rail ? He had the rail uncontested , by far the shortest course . No jockey takes the long way voluntarily least of all the amazing jockey that is Johnny Murtagh . Answers to follow ? I'm sorry but I feel there were team tactics and that much should have been already proved when earlier in the race David M'Cabe on Hindu Kush who was following the rail clearly looked to his right , sighted Allesandro Volta and moved off the rail immediately . I love Ballydoyle but I think Tartan Bearer was robbed of his chance . Curtail Call would have been closer also. Bad taste , best horse might not have won .
Roll on the jumps season when this type of tactic is redundant !!!
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Murtagh didn't "whip his horse off the rail"; Alessandro Volta first veered right towards the rail causing Murtagh to take corrective action, which in turn exacerbated AV's subsequent hanging/veering to the right. The question has already been posed as to why he would deliberately hamper his own chance to stop others. I's worth noting that if AV was coming to the end of his tether he wouldn't have been able to hold on to third, which he did despite running sideways. Furtermore, Tartan Bearer wouldn't have won without the interference, as even those who backed him will admit.
 
It certainly looked bad, not least since Curtain Call was nearly brought down and Tartan Bearer was severely dragged off course, ending any chance he had. However I cannot understand how anyone would think that Alessandro Volta hanging so violently was anything other than something the horse did of its own accord and that which Murtagh had no control over.

There is no way that was a deliberate tactic - for starters, Murtagh probably wasn't aware of where Frozen Fire was and since FF came through on the stands side anyway there was a danger AV could have impeded FF's run also.
 
Ah, yes, since it's always that simple.

Have you tried to stop half a tonne of galloping racehorse from doing what they want when something enters their tiny brain, Colin? Sometimes even an inch wide (at the very most!!!) piece of felt-covered stick has no effect whatsoever on said half tonne galloping animal, unsurprisingly.
 
Originally posted by Colin Phillips@Jun 29 2008, 10:13 PM
So the argument for carrying it is........?
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In most cases it will help, but sometimes a complete nut of a horse will ignore it.
 
I did use the word "sometimes" - as in "sometimes an inch wide....piece of felt-covered stick has no effect whatsoever"
 
Anyway, come off it Colin - you know full well all about what horses are and are not capable of. Do you seriously advocate the banning of the whip? Somehow I think not - you know better than to come out with tree hugging, clueless, poncy tripe like that!
 
I'm glad to say that I agree with a lot of the people that I respect on here and Frozen Fire was the winner on merit and Murtaghs actions weren't deliberate.
Favourite gets beaten in a rough race and people start crying.Some on here need to get a new hobby.
 
Originally posted by solerina@Jun 29 2008, 08:31 PM
Watch the tape . Why did Murtagh whip his horse off the rail ? He had the rail uncontested , by far the shortest course . No jockey takes the long way voluntarily least of all the amazing jockey that is Johnny Murtagh . Answers to follow ? I'm sorry but I feel there were team tactics and that much should have been already proved when earlier in the race David M'Cabe on Hindu Kush who was following the rail clearly looked to his right , sighted Allesandro Volta and moved off the rail immediately . I love Ballydoyle but I think Tartan Bearer was robbed of his chance . Curtail Call would have been closer also. Bad taste , best horse might not have won .
Roll on the jumps season when this type of tactic is redundant !!!
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Golden Freeze.
 
Ballydoyle have never had an incident of team tactics like the Give The Slip one where he actually pushed Fantastic Lights main rival (Galileo) wide. Neither Honoured Guest or Hindu Kush effected any of the rest of the field, including his or her own stablemates.

We need pacemakers in these races...I dont know about you but I dont want them falling back or impeading the best horses. I have no problem with them letting their stablemates through once they are not effecting another horse which they have not.

If we dont have them in the race we will instead have slowly run French like races with lots of unlucky horses.
 
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