S
SlimChance
Guest
On his WH run he has no chance of winning it this year either.
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
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- Nov 14, 2006
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Connections of Flemenstar are apparently now saying the horse "under-performed" yesterday, and a decision on a Festival target will be delayed until they "have gotten to the bottom of it" as the horse was apparently "dead throughout".
They are mental.
They are mental.
chroniclandlord
Senior Jockey
The owner would indeed appear to be completely deluded.
davidjohnson
At the Start
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- Jun 29, 2007
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Wouldn't be the biggest surprise to see the owner move him.
To those that think the horse didn't stay yesterday.
I have 2 questions. How much further behind SDC was Flemenstar at the last compared to the line, and how far did Flemenstar need to beat SDC by to have stayed.
I thought yesterday definitely proved his stamina for 3m, and if they ride him to play to his strengths, he'd have won. Hopefully we'll get to see him do it at Punchestown if not Cheltenham.
To those that think the horse didn't stay yesterday.
I have 2 questions. How much further behind SDC was Flemenstar at the last compared to the line, and how far did Flemenstar need to beat SDC by to have stayed.
I thought yesterday definitely proved his stamina for 3m, and if they ride him to play to his strengths, he'd have won. Hopefully we'll get to see him do it at Punchestown if not Cheltenham.
granger
Senior Jockey
Whether people think he stays or doesn't, it must be very obvious that 3miles is not his optimum trip
Flemenstar - needs a change of owner, trainer and jockey !
Daft tactics yesterday . Casey thinks he doesn't stay after giving him no chance to use his best asset, Curran thinks he was poorly and Lynch appears not to have thought at all judging by his taking a pull endlessly.
Daft tactics yesterday . Casey thinks he doesn't stay after giving him no chance to use his best asset, Curran thinks he was poorly and Lynch appears not to have thought at all judging by his taking a pull endlessly.
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Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Nothing wrong with the form, but Nicholls knows that TB would get badly outpaced in a typical Gold Cup and at best could only hope to run on for a place in the frame.
EC1
On a break
we had this discussion last time he ran David..its simple to be fair..all horses stay 5-10 miles..Flemenstar hammers oppo at 2.5m..and gets beat at 3 miles...so its fair to say he is best suited at 2.5 miles
there is no such thing as staying a trip really...but there is such a thing as showing you best form at a certain distance.
its blatantly obvious that Flemenstar is a lot better at shorter than 3m..imo
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
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I've a question for you, David.
How much should a Timeform subscriber spend, before he finds out Flemenstar is a non-stayer?
Scrutinising the numbers is all very well, but if your eyes tell you that Flemenstar started to empty/come off the bridle at exactly the same place in both races, it should be sufficient, imo.
The fact is that in both the Lexus and the Hennessy, The distress flares were being teed-up long before the last, and he was beaten all out on both occassions - staying-on at one-pace only (and even that's being a shade generous).
If he stays at all, then its under a very narrow set of circumstances, and even the he'd be by no means a certainty to beat any of the 'real' top-end stayers.
M
Marble
Guest
He stayed in the broadest sense of the word, just not well enough to provide any confidence of winning a grade one contest over 3 miles against something that really does stay, let alone 3 mile 3 Furlongs at Cheltenham. They'll ruin him if they go for that, and I hate to say it, but he'll be carried off in a stretcher!!
I don't think he'll win anything at Cheltenham now, too much uncertainty, dithering etc, something will be primed and will have been trained all season for the Ryanair and probably beat him on the day now anyway. There's only so long you can take other horses for mugs in your pursuit of a dream that can't be attained.
I don't think he'll win anything at Cheltenham now, too much uncertainty, dithering etc, something will be primed and will have been trained all season for the Ryanair and probably beat him on the day now anyway. There's only so long you can take other horses for mugs in your pursuit of a dream that can't be attained.
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edgt
Senior Jockey
Please give all those connected with Flemenstar a break!
While yesterday was not their best day tactically lots of connections have had similar experiences.
Consider One Man, Mickos Dream, Big Zeb having tried longer trips only to come back in trip in time. No one would consider their connections deluded.
How many non stayers has N Henderson run in The King George over the years ?
We would all love to own Flemenstar which is no guarantee we would do much different so far with him.
Hope he gets to Cheltenham (for whatever race)and stays race healthy for years to come.
While yesterday was not their best day tactically lots of connections have had similar experiences.
Consider One Man, Mickos Dream, Big Zeb having tried longer trips only to come back in trip in time. No one would consider their connections deluded.
How many non stayers has N Henderson run in The King George over the years ?
We would all love to own Flemenstar which is no guarantee we would do much different so far with him.
Hope he gets to Cheltenham (for whatever race)and stays race healthy for years to come.
To those who think Flemenstar stayed. How far do you think Flemenstar would have won if the finishing post was located in the spot Leopardstown's second last fence is sited?
I think the tactics and the pace of saturdays race meant that the petrol ran out 150 yards later than in the Lexus.
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EC1
On a break
of course he "stayed"...same as El Gran Senor "stayed" in his Derby...by staying 1.5 miles though he was unable to pass a horse he would have waltzed past at shorter.
Sprinter Sacre will "stay" 3m2f..but will be beat by horses he would thrash at shorter..its all relative to a horse's best form.
the question should be..is Flemenstar as good at 3m as he is at shorter..a simple question and answer really
pdleech
Apprentice
The situation with Flemenstar is fascinating. On breeding he should stay 3 miles and further (same sire as Tidal Bay and more stamina on dam side) and, if he hadn't been so impressive at shorter distances and creating such high hopes, it would be hard to say he didn't stay yesterday;he lost no ground in the last 2 furlongs to a horse that is not deemed not to have any stamina doubts. Indeed, based on breeding, the bigger surprise is that he has won so well over 2 and 2 1/2 miles; even in those victories it would be hard to say he showed blinding speed at the end of the race. The idea of going for the QM is illogical ; his jumping is good but not sufficiently better than SS to make up for the difference in speed. The trainer clearly favours the QM but he has not had enough good horses to be really credible; yes he knows the horse but he has no point of reference. He has good form on better ground and , if he were mine, I would want him to stride on in the Gold Cup - why not? Once in a lifetime horse for a small owner - go for it. When a horse is not used to 3 miles, not trained specifically for it and not ridden optimally then it doesn't matter if they stay or not - they won't win. The first two times that Tidal Bay ran over 3 miles you would (and people did) question his ability to stay -who would sat that now? It is way too early to categorically say Flemenstar does not stay.
EC1
On a break
if he hadn't been so impressive at shorter distances and creating such high hopes, it would be hard to say he didn't stay yesterday
which sums up every horse in training..without certain form at other trips you cannot judge "staying"..as it doesn't exist in an across the board manner as people seem to suggest. If we had never seen Flemenstar at shorter ..people wouldn't say he didn't stay today..they would just say he was beaten by a better horse..but if next week he ran against the same horse at shorter and beat him 10 lengths..people would have no hesitation in saying he was better suited by shorter
which sums up every horse in training..without certain form at other trips you cannot judge "staying"..as it doesn't exist in an across the board manner as people seem to suggest. If we had never seen Flemenstar at shorter ..people wouldn't say he didn't stay today..they would just say he was beaten by a better horse..but if next week he ran against the same horse at shorter and beat him 10 lengths..people would have no hesitation in saying he was better suited by shorter
His strength is his ability to jump fences at speed, and he's won the bulk of his races by killing off other horses before stamina became an issue. He needs energy to maintain that speed, and it's a total myth that he could conserve that energy by somehow going off faster, earlier.
Having seen him fail twice - in slowly run races - I'd have severe reservations about his stamina even for a RyanAir, and his trainer might be smarter than some give him credit for, in opting for the QM. I'd rather see him carried out on his shield against Sprinter Sacre, than piddled about with in circumstances he's yet to prove he can handle.
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EC1
On a break
when you say "stayed fine"..what does that mean?..does it mean the form he showed was better than at shorter?..he was a monster at shorter
Worst thing about flemenstar is the trainer telling us hes going to bang the wife tonight. You really don't want to think of him shooting his load for fucks sake. Midget porn isn't it?
It takes a very rare horse to beat a gc field when it's not their idea distance or course (thinking Dessie and perhaps kauto here) and ec's point is about right.
It takes a very rare horse to beat a gc field when it's not their idea distance or course (thinking Dessie and perhaps kauto here) and ec's point is about right.
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Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
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Spot-on, reet.