ISIS...Islamic State Victims

i read it on here first Warb..then when i saw it..i just thought wtf..you can't send that sort of message out.

if there isn't a big ruccus within labour after that then there is something seriously wrong with the party..its his body language as well..its like..ooh someone has mentioned kill..ooh i'm really uncomfortable..

you have to watch it ..watch his body language

if you got time transported to the future and didn't know who he was and saw that..and then someone said he's potential PM..you'd cak yersen..and get back from the future real quick and make sure he didn't get leader job
 
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I'll catch it late doubtless. Unless it's on the Beebs website. I've got other things to do rather than worrying about Corbyn. I wouldn't be so concerned about shoot to kill, more than I am about how many people we have capable of shooting to kill, and how quickly we could get them into position?
 
its not so much just the shoot to kill Warb..its just his overall reaction to taking any type of action..same with nuclear weapons..well i don't really want them..but oh if we have to have them then go on..but i'll never ever use them..mindboggling to me.

Its absolutely pointless him or the party laying out any other policies..he has failed on the main one..others are irrellevant if we are all dead
 
I wouldn't be so concerned about shoot to kill, more than I am about how many people we have capable of shooting to kill, and how quickly we could get them into position?
Yes, that is the real issue.
France has 278,000 policemen; the UK has approx 140,000.
And all 278,00 French police officers are armed; only 6,000 British policemen are qualified to carry a gun. If a terrorist operation were to occur somewhere in the shires, it could take up to half-an-hour for an Armed Response Unit to get to the scene. In the meantime, the local plod would be little more than spectators to the event, unable to do anything.
Britain is significantly more vulnerable to a mass body count killing than is France if such an atrocity as the Paris one were to occur.
 
One thing lost amidst the uproar about Corbyn's comments about shoot-to-kill was his forthright statement in the same interview that Saudi Arabia's support of -- and arming of -- the various jihadi groups must be addressed and a stop put to it. I applaud him for that.
 
Good to know you are well Hamm. You were close to it Friday by all accounts.


Cheers, Granger.

Paris is a very strange place right now. Parts (not those affected) of the city cordoned off, people still nerveux (understandably).
 
If a terrorist operation were to occur somewhere in the shires, it could take up to half-an-hour for an Armed Response Unit to get to the scene.
I was in the process of posting that 24 hours ago but deleted it, for the very good reason, that there was no point in advertising it. I went further than you though and named half dozen market towns in peripheral areas of the UK where the gunmen would likely run out of ammunition before anyone challenged them. It did occur to me that if somewhere I named suddenly did get shot up that I might just be having to answer a few question! urm .... a rare outbreak of common sense took hold

I do wonder if we need to be thinking about airborne rapid repsonse units though and even paratroopers. There's a lot of places in the UK served by useless road infrastructures that wouldn't be too difficult to block with a few felled trees or hijacked lorries
 
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i read it on here first Warb..then when i saw it..i just thought wtf..you can't send that sort of message out.

if there isn't a big ruccus within labour after that then there is something seriously wrong with the party..its his body language as well..its like..ooh someone has mentioned kill..ooh i'm really uncomfortable..

you have to watch it ..watch his body language

You lot have put me away! It ain't that bad. It's just a standard evasive political answer. You led me to believe he was running around planting flowers in the barrells of guns! I think Laura should have pushed him more

If I were honest, I'm not really bothered what Corbyn says, as he's simply irrelevant. I'm actually more concerned about Cameron than Corbyn, and his recent tendancy to start bragging about British involvement for absolutely no good strategic reason that I can see. Has someone explained to him that this is war, and it isn't a race to see who gets killed first. If UK special forces are contributing substantively, just keep it that way. Your allies know. They're the only ones who need to know. There is absolutely no good reason to ring the dinner bell. All you're succeeding in doing is exposing all of us to extra risk, and spreading additional anxiety.

What really concerns me though is that for decades the standard British government response to questions about special services is that we don't discuss them. Perhaps they've revised that line? We don't discuss them, unless the Prime Minister calculates that it's in his political interest to poke his chest out and act the 'big I am' and remind everyone in the world who he is.

I get that it's a morale boost for certain people to start getting all excited over brave Dave, but the reality is these people will celebrate whoeever fires out Emwazi. This is only just kicking off, there's plenty more game time in this match yet. The smart play would be to just keep below the horizon and continue doing whatever it is we are, without advertising it. I just can't help feeling however that this is all ego fuelled about the glorification of commando Cameron. Someone needed to have a word with him and explain that shouting 'come and 'ave a go if you think you're 'ard enough' isn't sensible in the real world. You don't just count to 20 and come back to life in real war
 
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That's a childish post

as I stated before and is well reported gchq and mi6 nailed him. So unless that is a total lie then the uk does take credit. Why not

to suggest this is nothing more than an ego trip for cameron is plain nasty
 
That's a childish post

as I stated before and is well reported gchq and mi6 nailed him. So unless that is a total lie then the uk does take credit. Why not

to suggest this is nothing more than an ego trip for cameron is plain nasty

Nothing of the sort, it's simply dealing coldly in the reality of what will become an increasingly deadly game. In the last month we've seen four high profile and deadly attacks outside of the Syrian theatre

11th October, Turkey, Kurds targetted by ISIS, 97 civilian dead
31st October, Russian airliner brought down over Sinai, 224 civilian dead
12th November, Hezbollah district in Beirut, 43 civilian dead
13th November, Paris, 129 civilian dead

Surely you can see the connection? All of these countries/ forces are visible front line combatants in Syria. The UK isn't

Bragging about our involvement is simply unnecessary, other than to give fan boys like yourself something to cheer, but there's plenty of other options to satisfy that market. There was nothing to prevent Cameron reporting the death of Emwazi, and then falling back on the stock answer of refusing to discuss operational details that successive government's have always used regarding special forces. The result is unaltered, (Emwazi is still dead) and we stand a better chance of sailing on by without exposing ourselves to any additional unnecessary risk.

Today of course Cameron pretty well told us that an attack on the UK was inevitable. I'm sure he's right, and I think all of us know, in our heart of hearts, its coming. I see no point in unnecessarily inviting it though. The smart play would be to simply get on with whatever it is we're doing and save the drum beating for later. This has got plenty long enough to run yet, there's no prize for being the country that can absorb the highest death toll and number of attacks

Try looking at this way round

What do you think you achieve by this posturing? Do you increase the UK's ranking on a target list? quite probably (I accept we're already on the list of course). Do you generate some feel good factor and morale boost? Quite probably. Is that a good tactical swap. Probably not.

The other thing worth noting is the complete contrast between the way Cameron was inviting attention onto the UK over this 'hit' and the numerous barely reported 'major plots foiled' (7 this year) that we rarely anything about. The latter is the sensible way of doing things. Don't give the enemy any details about how and who, simply report it as a low lying news item now and then so as not to cause civilian anxiety and then just try and go about your job unencumbered. Basically you have two different approaches to the same task. How do you account for the two different approaches? When it's a civilian one its low key, but when it involves a bit of daring the politician wants a piece of the reflected action. I should say its very rare for military personnel to solicit this sort of attention too. They're the ones in the field, and potentially the ones who could face capture and reprisals. They don't usually appreciate being identified as active operatives too

Come to think of it, if your reaction was anything to go by, I might be forgiven for concluding it was a cynical political ploy designed to bolster Cameron's popularity, as all you could do in the immediate aftermath was draw favourable comparisons with something as irrelevant as Jeremy Corbyn.

Actually, come to think of it, all of the opposition parties are a bit silent at the moment. It's as if they're collectively holding their breaths not really sure of what to say, or which way to dive
 
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On another matter, Hollande has stated again that France is 'at war' with ISIL: is this a formal declaration of war, in which case all sorts of 'rules of war' come into effect, or just rousing words?

I asked the same question a couple of days ago, and still don't know the answer. I'm also interested to know if our own entente with the French applies? (don't the Scots have an ancient alliance with them?)

My best guess however is that it's hot air

Intervention has quite a few obstacles that France will need to overcome, not the least of which might be the formal declaration of war on a country that you don't recognise exists.

More pertinent I'd suggest though is just how you prosecute your declaration of war? If all you're doing is dropping bombs from aircraft, then you aren't really likely to make that much difference unless there is someone on the ground to captialise on the opportunity that the attack creates. You might feel better about yourself, but I think that's just about all the satisfaction you'll get

If the French decide to start putting ground troops in and become the first western nation to engage en masse, it leaves them some seriosuly difficult, and perilous choices to make. Going in unilaterally is incredibly risky. This ain't Mali. It could be Dien Bien Phu all over again!

If they do decide to up the ante though, they clearly need an ally on the ground to accept them onto their territory and join battle alongside them, unless they're going to try some crazy conquest of the entire country taking on every group they come across. They only have three realistic partners as things stand and they're fraught with dangers and contradictions.

1: The Free Syrian Army - risks putting them into a direct conflict with Russia and a seriously problematic escalation that is otherwise showing signs of blossoming. In any event trying to fight alongside any of the unreliable rag bag of splinter factions that make up the rebels is borderline insane. You could end up very exposed

2: The Syrian government - this is going to require a formal change of policy and quite a significant u turn. You sense that the government's of the west are trying to reach a face saving accommodation that allows them to tolerate Assad for reasons of expediency (much the same way as they did Stalin) but ...... I can't see it yet. I don't see how they can do this without America's blessing

3: The Kurds - I'd overlooked them. So far as we know they only have aspirations for their own homeland and don't want to take the fight beyond that territorial claim, but bordering Turkey they would be a potential jump off point for the French to attack Raaqa from the north whilst being able to protect the rear

I note incidentally therefore, that in the same paragraph that Hollande declared France was at war, he also said he was consulting his allies. It's an acknowledgement that France isn't about to commit a really reckless unilateral act. The fourth option (unspoken for now) is an international coalition response aka Iraq 2003
 
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One thing lost amidst the uproar about Corbyn's comments about shoot-to-kill was his forthright statement in the same interview that Saudi Arabia's support of -- and arming of -- the various jihadi groups must be addressed and a stop put to it. I applaud him for that.

It was hardly "forthright", Ice. It was "questions need to be asked" mumbling, and in no way makes-up for his refusal to sanction shoot-to-kill - which he comically considers "dangerous" in the context of a terror attack.

I suspect he would now prefer never to have gotten off his hoop from the back-benches.......somewhere I expect him to return very-soon (voluntarily or otherwise) because Labour is doomed to electoral annihilation under his leadership.
 
Delighted to see that Anonymous have taken-up the mantle, and plan to wholly disrupt ISIS online communications, and expose known sympathisers. This could nicely complement existing air-strikes and potential boots-on-the-ground.
 
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It was hardly "forthright", Ice. It was "questions need to be asked" mumbling,
Fair enough, maybe "forthright" was a bit magnified, but at least he said it -- surely an enhancement on the both blind eyes being turned to the duplicitous Saudi regime by David Cameron, and dare I say it, the Royal Family.
Not alone Britain, of course, but also USA and France who routinely dance around the support given by Saudi to jihadist groups in Syria ( including ISIS), their killing of thousands of Yemeni citizens by indiscriminate carpet-bombing, and their appalling human rights. Hell, David Cameron even proposed Saudi Arabia to chair that United Nations Human Rights Committee. And with a significant airforce and resources, Saudi cannot see fit to join in dropping a single bomb on their ISIS pals. Neither are they wlling to take a single refugee from the millions of such of their own Sunni faith.

Sometimes I wonder if what I am seeing is a case of the tail wagging the dog; a case of Saudi Arabia dictating to the Western coalition who and what to support in Syria as long as it is not their (Saudi) arch-enemy Assad. And we know why the West kowtows -- fcking Saudi oil and billon dollar arms deals.

In fairness, Carbyn deserves a little credit for talking this up, when just about everyone else in western government circles prefers to stay schtum
 
Ha! Troll

I'm not too concerned what Corbyn thinks to be honest. Shoot to kill can go wrong from time to time, but that's just a statement of the bloody obvious. Since shoot to tickle isn't really an option though..... I think it depends what the actual question posed to him was, and the context of the complete answer. Clearly there are occasions where taking 'suspects' alive (I use the word loosely) is a desirable outcome if you have grounds to believe that doing so will assist in the generation of intelligence. Clearly there are other occasions where Mr 7.62 does the trick

You're absolutely correct here, Warbler. People want to turn this into a very simple 'right or wrong' debate but its a grey area where the problem exists. Chances are Corbyn is not a complete idiot and part of his considerations must be about not wanting to give more powers to police forces as a knee jerk reaction. The police are not whiter than white (E.G Mark Duggan in Tottenham) and while his choice of words have caused confusion, (he could certainly do with some PR training), I think his position is perfectly reasonable.

Ps, the way things are heading its probably a matter of time before the government want to arm every policeman/woman in the country, (or at least the major cities), and so this is part of the context which I'm interpreting his comments.
 
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You're absolutely correct here, Warbler. People want to turn this into a very simple 'right or wrong' debate but its a grey area where the problem exists. Chances are Corbyn is not a complete idiot and part of his considerations must be about not wanting to give more powers to police forces as a knee jerk reaction. The police are not whiter than white (E.G Mark Duggan in Tottenham) and while his choice of words have caused confusion, (he could certainly do with some PR training), I think his position is perfectly reasonable.

Ps, the way things are heading its probably a matter of time before the government want to arm every policeman/woman in the country, (or at least the major cities), and so this is part of the context which I'm interpreting his comments.

Thats absolute nonsense frankly.

its pretty clear what he's saying. He clearly stating that if a terrorist is shooting hostages one by one in nightclub say... As has happened of course. .. Then the snipers will not be allowed to shoot and stop him

now tell me where the "grey area" is here? He is completely clear that on this. the rights of the terrorist come before those of the victims

i put it to the voters whether that is "reasonable"

he is a moron
 
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this is far more key than private donors and frankly the big question has to be who is buying the oil? Turkey?.

Well certainly in the first two years of the conflict, the identity of one of the purchasers would give you a shock!!! All of which really goes to prove what a crazy and counter intuitive muddle this whole lot is. This is really Milo Minderbinder stuff

Also worth noting of course is that Qatar were flagging Libyan oil until the American's started to stop their shipping and discovered they were gun running to ISIL in Sirte. The irony that Platini and Sarkozy should award them with a world cup!
 
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Wrong. You are making knee jerk assumptions based on a vague dislike of a shoot to kill policy ("in general",) by the opposition leader.

Its a common theme in this day and age that people like to tell people what they're thinking or saying before they actually say it, and your guilty of doing this to Corbyn you'll be delighted to know!

We must all realise that the more times we believe and say things about other people does not actually increase the probability that what we're implying and saying is true. I think this is some times the case with you.
 
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On the BBC News Channel a few minutes ago Lord West, a former First Sea Lord, said the Kurds are also buying ISIL oil in addition to Syria and Turkey: "we all know that" :confused:
 
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