ISIS...Islamic State Victims

No but point is that they have gone so far in such a disgusting way that the backers are now under scrutiny which in turn means that they are going to find it harder to get support. This isn't exactly under the radar now is it?

There is a report on the net that a lot of isis forces have been routed by the air attacks in Iraq and have retreated
 
trackside528 said:
The QIPCO Champions Series has enhanced the Flat racing calendar in fairness. :cool:
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I have a vision of the scene in the godfather and their horses. Show them what be headings are all about

Not suggesting in the parade ring at York tomorrow though
 
Actually we need some context

What I'm about to tell you is shocking, and I hope you can cope with it

War is nasty, real people get killed, and people do bad things to each other - shock

That they've used a Brit to behead an American isn't a coincidence of course. The White House will see through this, albeit they'll need to keep one eye on American public opinion. Having said that, and this is the perversity of the world, they might actually be mildly grateful for this incident at the momemt, given what's happening domestically. Better to have their news filled up by stories of British jihadists executing gallant journos than Policeman shooting dead black teenagers. It's almost ironic too given the emphasis that Cameron has placed on border controls that the Home Office had to pay £250m yesterday in compensation to an American contractor for screwing the whole thing up (at a time when the government has cut back on customs and border check personnel)

I suppose at one level the panic that it was designed to sow has worked as Cameron comes scuttling back to Downing Street kakking himself and calls yet more COBRA meetings. Did the Americans call a National Security Council when it transpired that money raised in Boston was used to bomb Birmingham pubs? Don't think so, or that their own troops were flying sorties over Vietnam using peasent farmers as target practise for fun. Nah they swept that under the carpet. What about their gung-ho A10 pilots who were complaining that they couldn't find any traffic in 1991 before deciding to take a speculative punt on a British armoured vehicle 10 mins later?

**** happens - it's that simple. Combatants and non-combatants have always been executed in the history of warfare. Sure it's not good, but we need some context, and a thought out response

I say that because one thing you need to bear in mind before you go diving in, is that all the evidence of these types of scatter gun campaigns points to you recruiting more to the cause you're trying to defeat. Martin McGuiness was always very clear on this and openly admits he couldn't recruit prior to Bloody Sunday, but never had any problems afterwards. I suspect that in the UK you could easily find a second front opens up very quickly.

OK Cameron's a clown, and is making himself look more and more peripheral and ridiculous by the day, but we knew that. Thankfully his useless Foreign Secretary as was isn't there now. I suspect events will quucikly over run Cameron now, if they haven't already. His attempts to present himself as the global narrator are only being reported in this country as far as I can see. The Americans started bombing the IS last week, and the French have been supplying the Kurdisn with weapons directly on the same time scale. Cameron is left saying that we haven't received any requests yet. Well war moves at a faster pace then your committee process Dave, so you won't do. In any event, we haven't much that would be of any use to them anyway when they can get superior equipment today, then Britains shite hardware in a months a time (boots, radios and body armour aren't really that much help in the now)
 
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clivex said:
It's a tiny state which can be dropped like a stone . Only man city would have anything to worry about
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Well surely to God even the most evil and corrupt dictatorship on this planet (Sepp Blatter and FIFA) can see that the writing is on the wall now. If ever they wanted out of the whole bent deal, this is their chance
 
Never thought of that .. But FIFA... They are so stupid they would probably move the competition to syria

It's a chance you take with recruitment though isn't it? I have my doubts in truth. Same was said of aq and now?

Can dwell on what's happened in the past too much. You can look back and find a precedent and reason for doing absolutely nothing about anything if you want to

As an aside I think Cameron is often a lazy politican who reacts too instinctively or does not have a firm belief (in anything I sometimes think) .
 
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clivex said:
Never thought of that .. But FIFA... They are so stupid they would probably move the competition to syria
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Of course they won't, they'll move it to the country with the finest traditions of football, the best stadium and infrastructure, and the most honestly managed bid, as they always have!!!

In fact if we were thinking laterally, we should perhaps encourage FIFA and the world of football to host in Qatar in 2022 and then bomb the **** out the place and kill 3 cancers in one

Still if nothing else comes out of this Clive, it is at last encouraging to see you showing some independent thought in calling for Qatar to be addressed rather than simply falling in behind whoever America picks to be her friends. I tend to agree actually that Qatyar would be one of the easier countries to sort out, and in a funny way, it's those with the material gains of oil wealth that are more furtile for trying to impose liberal democracy on than those which have a much bigger restive class. I include Saudia Arabia and Kuwait on that list too, as I do Oman, but there's no chance of happening until America recognises that their friends are actually guilty.

I should say though, that ultimately I think America will force this issue, albeit for different reasons. I'd actually have my money on Saudi Arabia to be one of the next countries to start covert nuclear programmes myself
 
Starting ot emerge that the US tried, and failed, to free the hostages in Syria. It needn't alter the end conclusion but it might be interesting to have a fuller picture yet
 
trackside528 said:
Why is it irrational to you? If you are in living in an area that ISIS is closing on, and you hear (or see) that in the last town they took they threw 200 non-believers in a mass grave and put another fella's head on a spike, do you not think that it would influence your decision about whether to stay and fight, acquiesce, or just get the hell out of town - it certainly would for me. These things have to be viewed in a local context.
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So how does surrounding, with the intention of killing, 30,000 people on a mountainside in Sinjar tie in with this supposed purpose and "strategy" of yours. How does the intention of wiping out an entire people and religion of pre-Judean times (Yazidi) form part of some military plan?
It's a mistake to dignify these scum with any strategy when their only strategy is ethnic and religious murder on a grand scale.
 
I haven't watched the video -- not even the edited/censored clips of it -- and I have no intention of doing so,
but ..........................
I've been affected by the barbaric murder of James Foley in ways other than the obvious reaction of revulsion.
I fear that I may become ever so slightly desensitized by the monstrous actions of this organisation. They're gradually raising the obscenity level every passing day; they're bit-by-bit erasing a natural sense of humanity and compassion from the world, and I feel myself kinda expecting some new worse horror to appear each morning on the news. I only hope that I don't become anesthetized to it.
These monsters really do need stopping.

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icebreaker said:
So how does surrounding, with the intention of killing, 30,000 people on a mountainside in Sinjar tie in with this supposed purpose and "strategy" of yours. How does the intention of wiping out an entire people and religion of pre-Judean times (Yazidi) form part of some military plan?
It's a mistake to dignify these scum with any strategy when their only strategy is ethnic and religious murder on a grand scale.
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I agree.
 
harry said:
Who knows what will be the fate of the other hostage?

Crucifixion, The Rack?
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Aye, a crucifixion video with full Hollywood production values, available free download for worldwide consumption. Wouldn't be a surprise. They seem intent on upping the shock value every week.
(It's thought there are currently 20 journo's held captive by ISIS).

I find it somewhat wrong that BBC news is describing it as an "execution". Call it for what it is, Auntie, ...........plain murder !

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No matter how horrible these videos are, the shock value will diminish quickly.

The Iraqi beheadings a few years ago and the Narco dismemberment videos etc proved this.

There were new ones virtually every day and they became cult videos for many
 
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harry said:
No matter how horrible these videos are, the shock value will diminish quickly.
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Yes, you're correct. But that is the pity of it, tho'.
Which is what I was saying earlier that I hope I don't become desensitized to these appalling acts because of repetition.
 
clivex said:
Al queda overstepped the mark in the Arab world (Jordan bombings especially) and lost a lot of backing and support.
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You keep telling us AQ is finished Clive (in your imagination) but I'm not sure you ever really got what it is. Perhaps you could tell us what you think AQ is?

I should also that bear in mind that we're due to pull out of Afghanistan imminently, it isn't surprising that the western propoganda machine is telling you that AQ is finished, they've got to

The ponint is it never existed in the first place in the way that it was presented. It was a very different network to the conventional top down hierarchical command and control structure that west is sued to, and which was used for the first few years to try and frame our understanding

AQ was a sort of cross between conference organisers, training establishment, dragons den, and internet chat room. One thing it wasn't, was a centralsied command structure sending out orders all over the world. The Bin Liner videos were evidence of this. The agendas that were being set were the products of local commanders defining their own terms of engagement based on their own perceptions of grievance and identifiable enemy. IT's difficult to argue AQ is dead when the IS is one, of many, direct spin offs and currently controls huge swathes of a country that you've spent a decade trying to democratise, train an army that ran off, and killed a higher average per year number of their inhabitants than their previous ruler did (who let us not forget would have crused IS within a week)
 
You keep saying that but as i stated before, it was far more top down than others like to imagine. I have not said it is "finished" but it is clearly a lot less active than it was. Im sure its disappointing for some but the drones were effective and there has been barely any activity for quite some time now. It proved once again that if you keep hitting the head the body withers.
 
clivex said:
You keep saying that but as i stated before, it was far more top down than others like to imagine.
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Of course it was; you're absolutely correct.
Twin Towers 9/11 was an in-house operation, the complexity of organisation and planning could not have been achieved via a multitude of networks over the internet. The flight training; the ticket buying; the transport to various airport hubs; the co-ordination of nineteen team members. Suggesting that this was achieved outside a central planning and control structure is risible.
 
Furthermore, all the hand wringers and closet admirers stated quite clearly that "the west" would "get it" for killing Bin laden. And what happened?

Nothing
 
Al Qeada's mission has effectively been completed. Their intent was to give rise to global Jihad, without the need for an over-arching command structure - they were much more about facilitating an "awakening" (for want of a better phrase). Given current circumstances, you would have to think they've been broadly successful - despite the fact that atrocities in the West have been limited in number and scale, since 9/11.

It's extremely dangerous to get complacent on the back of Bin Laden's death and the lack of 'action' since Al-Zawahiri assumed control of the original outfit. The head may have been cut-off, but the body has splintered into myriad smaller pieces, rather than it "withering".
 
Precisely Grasshopper

Clive please try and prevent your wishful thinking running away with you, it clouds your judgement

And I don't think anyone did say that killing Bin Liner would bring about mass retribution. I certainly don't remember it anyway. Again I think your imagination is playing tricks on your memory. As I recall by and a way the biggest point of contention and potential backlash involved the role played by Pakistan and the closing of air corridors, and calls to end drone attacks.
 
Rubbish.

AQ has been a total failure. There is no global jihad and the number of muslims sympathetic to such stupid "causes" is no more and probably less than before.

What was their aim? and how close are they to it? They have been battered and are hiding in caves They are a million miles away. The arab world was initially energised by bin laden, but turned their back on them .

they have got absolutely no where in the west and most specifically in their main target of saudi

Dont patronise (again) warbler

And dont be ridiculous. There was plenty of talk of a backlash. of course there was

It may hurt to admit it, but actions by western and arabic governments against AQ have been largely successful
 
Utterly clueless reponse. WTF do you think IS represent?

I suppose you have to deny their bleedin' self-evident success, given you were tromboning all the way when the West went into Iraq, and were an advocate of toppling Assad.

Jeezus.
 
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