Kauto Star

Turpin Green was running ok until he fell as well (have a soft spot for the horse as he was named after a road near me - Hemmings was brought up in Leyland)
 
rorydelargy said:
Knight Legend set no more than a fair pace, but it wasn't funereal by any means. It certainly tested The Listener's jumping.
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Ran much better than his finishing position suggests I thought BTW. I thought he set a fairly decent gallop, which was rather surprising given that there was always a doubt about his ability to get the trip, especially on soft ground. What's more, he put in a decent round of jumping before blatantly failing to stay the trip.

Still not a horse I like to be honest, but it was a decent run.
 
He has a habit of belting one late on which leaves him vulnerable. Might be the type for the Peterborough if Jess sends him over.
 
I was up there- perfect start for Kauto and taking on Noland wasn't a good idea...
First time I'd been to The Maze for years- nice friendly little course but the viewing is poor- Thank God for the big screen!
 
nice friendly little course but the viewing is poor
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The viewing is very poor, isn't it, even on tv? It's a very big circuit which takes them a long distance from the tiny stand. They badly need a new stand with higher elevation. This fixture has been a great success but they need to improve the facilities.

BTW, Robert Hall went a bit over the the top when he said Kauto Star's performance was the finest seen in the history of this race. Kauto is the best horse to have appeared in the race but Looks Like Trouble really turned it on the year he went to Down Royal. Noel Chance has said he was better that day than when he won the Gold Cup and I agree with him.
 
The Racing Post must have got carried away too, giving him an RPR of 173+. This is what they had to say:

A brilliant performance from LOOKS LIKE TROUBLE who led throughout and put in some spectacular leaps. With Florida Pearl running the best part of a stone below his best, some might question the value of the form but a line through Dorans Pride-beaten 15 lengths and 10lb below the winner on adjusted official ratings-would appear to confirm trainer Noel Chance's view that the Cheltenham Gold Cup winner has improved since last season.
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It's interesting to note, by the way, that while Ruby was very pleased with how yesterday went he was cagey about saying afterwards that Kauto was back to his best.
 
I'd say so yes. Covenient to use the line through Doran's Pride to emphasise the point you want (the RP, not you personally) and ignore that to do that you'd need to have Inis Cara running somewhere like 15 lb better than he ever did before or since. The 173+ looks like it includes at least a dozen lengths as value extra over the bare result. Surely you could give Kauto Star at least the same.
 
Grey said:
The Racing Post must have got carried away too, giving him an RPR of 173+. This is what they had to say:

It's interesting to note, by the way, that while Ruby was very pleased with how yesterday went he was cagey about saying afterwards that Kauto was back to his best.
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Ruby didn't, but then he tends not to in that context. I get the feeling he leaves that to the trianers. Nicholls did say so, though!
 
I recognise the point you are making, David, but I think people are generally too quick to question form when an inferior animal finishes closer than expected. Maybe Inis Cara did reach a pinnacle that day; it's not out of the question. Every year the Arc form is brought into question because some wild outsider finishes in the places.

It seems quite normal to me that a horse might produce its best when trying to keep up with a superior animal. After all, it's generally the case with human athletes that their best performances come against the best opposition. It's part of the reason why trainers are often reluctant to run horses in higher class races: if they finish too close behind the winner they might get murdered by the handicapper.

For the same reason I pay much more attention when evaluating form to what a horse has beaten than to what finished in front of it. Some horses can run above themselves when towed along as part of a higher class field.
 
Grey said:
For the same reason I pay much more attention when evaluating form to what a horse has beaten than to what finished in front of it. Some horses can run above themselves when towed along as part of a higher class field.
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Excellent point.
 
Kauto Star gets a provisional RPR of 162 for Saturday's run. Maybe he should get a few pounds more, but he did not surpass Looks Like Trouble's great display. He didn't run anywhere near to his best, but he didn't have to.
 
The major, almost fatal flaw, in your arguement Grey was to assume Robert Hall knows anything about racing, or form.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey

For the same reason I pay much more attention when evaluating form to what a horse has beaten than to what finished in front of it. Some horses can run above themselves when towed along as part of a higher class field.

Excellent point.
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And some horses can plod on nicely when higher class animals have been burnt off or blown up when trying to realistically challenge a winner.

Huge mistake to take literally the proximity of well beaten animals in any race
 
clivex said:
And some horses can plod on nicely when higher class animals have been burnt off or blown up when trying to realistically challenge a winner.

Huge mistake to take literally the proximity of well beaten animals in any race
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Especially in small fields in soft ground when it is not an end to end gallop.
 
Lets rate the bare form 180 and be done with it then if we're going to ignore the proximity of horses which don't suit our argument.
 
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do you really think that the proximity of any horse can be taken literally in such a race? i find that amazing.

why the obsession with a rating?

i couldnt care less about that. the important factors were the quality of his jumping (much better than aintree and cheltenham) and the way he travelled. This was far more reassuring than his reappearance last year. No doubt that was "rated" as such and such by some but the key element in a reasonable performance was the way he had to be pushed along midrace
 
I thought he looked back to his best. He jumped with enthusiasm. I wouldn't worry to much about what rating he achieved at this point.He
wasn't tested.
 
I wasn't the one that introduced ratings into this argument. I was just pointing out that what Kauto Star and Looks Like Trouble achieved in the race are broadly on a par. Basically they both won head in chest with their main rivals disappointing with a no-hoper flattered to finish so close. Of course the figure that Kauto ran to is largely immaterial because it's pretty difficult to put a satisfactory figure on it and as I said on trf, of more significance is that he seemed to travel and jump much better than on his last 2 starts.
 
I didn't intend to introduce an arid discussion about ratings either. I only wanted to remind the likes of Robert Hall what Looks Like Trouble had done when he came to Down Royal, and to defend his performance when DJ then tried to knock it.

I agree that he and Kauto's performances are broadly on a par, but LLT's was a more aggressive display of jumping and in my opinion was superior. Overall, though, and as I've already said, there is no doubt Kauto is the better horse.
 
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