King George VI Chase - Boxing Day, Kempton

most of vautour's form is on soft ground though..not seeing the spring thing at all bar it coincides with novices main targets..whereas when older..KG then becomes the new first target

if Mullins hosses like spring ground then why poor record at Aintree
 
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He's not that interested in Aintree. Mullins priorities arw Cheltenham and Punchestown and Vautour's very best form is on decent ground.
 
His priority is the winning the gold cup too

They are pig determined to show that Vautour is 3m plus

He will need to be Kauto Star good to be so effective over 2 and half leading up to 3m 2
 
Wets the appetite this race. Will be no prisoners here.
Don Cossack will just be starting when others wave the flag.
 
granger said:
He will need to be Kauto Star good to be so effective over 2 and half leading up to 3m 2
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I think Best Mate would be a better yardstick. Having rated 169 (over 18 furlongs?) his first run over 3 miles was the KG and he just got beat because he was ridden to make sure he stayed. Ridden more confidently in the Gold Cup he stayed the extra up the hill fine.
 
My one wish is that Ruby doesn't ride Vautour like a non stayer but rides him in the same manner he did Kauto Star..Steady away and hit the front with around 5 to jump and use his speed to his best advantage.

Not saying he's as good as Kauto but the potential is there and if he is going to win then they should not be riding him any differently than they have in the past.
 
granger said:
Best Mate didn't have the gears that Vautour has
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Personally, I would prefer we left the comparisons with Best Mate until after we've really seen what Vautour is made of.

FWIW, my faith is unwavering, but in my view, he doesn't need to win the KG to go to the very top.........but he does need to go very close indeed.
 
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Grasshopper said:
Personally, I would prefer we left the comparisons with Best Mate until after we've really seen what Vautour is made of.

FWIW, my faith is unwavering, but in my view, he doesn't need to win the KG to go to the very top.........but he does need to go very close indeed.
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Comparison was in relation to cruising speed only. Lot of water under the bridge to come before their records are comparable.

with concerns over DC at Chelt, your point is valid regarding vautour not needing to win but you would have to hope they pull well clear of the field.
 
Best Mate had loads of speed but for a bloody awful ride he would have won the Supreme Novices and was long odds on favourite for the aborted 2001 Arkle .
 
Maruco said:
I've been all over Don Cossack for this for ages. The only slight doubt is whether Vautour is up to running a big race around Kempton. I also reckon he has stamina doubts, but he'll surely be ridden for the trip which negates some of EC's theory. If he's going to get it it'll be a flat three miles around Kempton rather than a stiff 3m2f around Prestbury Park.

The other thing that I'd say against EC's theory is that all of us would have put Kauto Star in the same bracket when he was stepped up to three miles. The difference here is that Vautour is bred to stay it and Kauto Star wasn't.

I agree with Grassy with regards Cue Card. I love the horse, but just look at what he beat, albeit impressively, and I see him falling short. Silviniaco Conti is a horse I've never really taken to if I'm honest. He'll be at his best on Boxing Day, but I can't see any bit of form that's good enough to beat Don Cossack if he jumps the way he usually does.

Don Cossack has all the ticks in the boxes and I'm pretty confident he'll win, but if Vautour proves me wrong I'll get my money back on him at Cheltenham.
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If Don Cossack has an achilles heel, it's likely his lack of a gear change around a course where speed is such an asset. He was impressive enough round Aintree, but most of his rivals fell in a hole that day, and he was notably outpaced and outjumped several times before prevailing at Punchestown. Similar applies to his defeat in a poor RyanAir.
Vatour's seasonal debut is easily forgiven as no more than a spin around a RH track on decent ground to prepare him for this (never looked like losing), and he remains much the likeliest winner, but I agree with Len that Silviniaco C. looks rock solid e.w.
 
Listening to Willie Mullins there on the Racing Post podcast on Vautour.

"To say a horse looked a different league in the Supreme Novice Hurdle is something & that's what he looked to me that day. He probably only produced that run since once in the JLT last year. Whether we can get that out of him at christmas.....but I don't want it until March. Just the way we train our horses maybe he might not be up to that peak at Christmas. I'd love to win the KG & hopefully he's good enough to do it but it just seems to be the way we train. We've never won a Lexus but can turn the form around when it comes to February or March"

Worrying, in my opinion, if you intended backing Vautour. Surely the horse will need to put in one of those Cheltenham performances to beat a Don Cossack or Cue Card here who no doubt will be fully tuned up. I mean Cue Card is still chasing that million pound bonus! This is probably his gold cup. Likewise Silvinaco Conti, a course specialist.

It's been mentioned here that WPM would be able to peak Vautour for this race, bring him back down and then bring him back again for March. The few words above totally contradict that. Mullins prefers a slow simmering process before gradually bringing his stock to boil in one violent eruption. That eruption generally happens in March.

More than enough for me to side with Cue Card for this.






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EC1 said:
why 10 lengths?..Cue Card ran a 175 ish mark didn't he last time?

monster would be 190 would have thought..180 is quite achievable by a really good horse
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Phil Smith marked CC up at 172 after the Betfair, but did admit he could have given him a 180 rating, were it not for a belief that the horses behind did not run their true races.

Soooo looking forward to this race.
 
Kauto Abu said:
Listening to Willie Mullins there on the Racing Post podcast on Vautour.

"To say a horse looked a different league in the Supreme Novice Hurdle is something & that's what he looked to me that day. He probably only produced that run since once in the JLT last year. Whether we can get that out of him at christmas.....but I don't want it until March. Just the way we train our horses maybe he might not be up to that peak at Christmas. I'd love to win the KG & hopefully he's good enough to do it but it just seems to be the way we train. We've never won a Lexus but can turn the form around when it comes to February or March"

Worrying, in my opinion, if you intended backing Vautour. Surely the horse will need to put in one of those Cheltenham performances to beat a Don Cossack or Cue Card here who no doubt will be fully tuned up. I mean Cue Card is still chasing that million pound bonus! This is probably his gold cup. Likewise Silvinaco Conti, a course specialist.

It's been mentioned here that WPM would be able to peak Vautour for this race, bring him back down and then bring him back again for March. The few words above totally contradict that. Mullins prefers a slow simmering process before gradually bringing his stock to boil in one violent eruption. That eruption generally happens in March.

More than enough for me to side with Cue Card for this.






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Vautour's one bad run also came on this very day last year.

Just saying :ninja:
 
Kauto Abu said:
Listening to Willie Mullins there on the Racing Post podcast on Vautour.

"To say a horse looked a different league in the Supreme Novice Hurdle is something & that's what he looked to me that day. He probably only produced that run since once in the JLT last year. Whether we can get that out of him at christmas.....but I don't want it until March. Just the way we train our horses maybe he might not be up to that peak at Christmas. I'd love to win the KG & hopefully he's good enough to do it but it just seems to be the way we train. We've never won a Lexus but can turn the form around when it comes to February or March"

Worrying, in my opinion, if you intended backing Vautour. Surely the horse will need to put in one of those Cheltenham performances to beat a Don Cossack or Cue Card here who no doubt will be fully tuned up. I mean Cue Card is still chasing that million pound bonus! This is probably his gold cup. Likewise Silvinaco Conti, a course specialist.

It's been mentioned here that WPM would be able to peak Vautour for this race, bring him back down and then bring him back again for March. The few words above totally contradict that. Mullins prefers a slow simmering process before gradually bringing his stock to boil in one violent eruption. That eruption generally happens in March.

More than enough for me to side with Cue Card for this.
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Conversely, that he's being trained for the Gold Cup is also a shot across the bows for those who reckon he won't stay the King George trip.
 
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Mullins never once mentioned Vautour & the GC in the same breath there. Instead he referred to Vautour & Cheltenham in March. Whether that's the Gold Cup or Ryanair remains to be seen, a lot will hinge on Saturdays performance. He did say there was a concern about stepping up to 3m for the first time but Saturday should tell us more.

The mini gamble in recent weeks on him for the Ryanair would suggest it's not totally out of the question, 5/2 fav now.




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Kauto Abu said:
Worrying, in my opinion, if you intended backing Vautour. Surely the horse will need to put in one of those Cheltenham performances to beat a Don Cossack or Cue Card here who no doubt will be fully tuned up. I mean Cue Card is still chasing that million pound bonus! This is probably his gold cup. Likewise Silvinaco Conti, a course specialist.
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Don and Cue Card would've beaten Valseur Lido and Apache by 20 lengths on their top day. Ruby used the whip at full capacity up to the line to beat them by 15 lengths. Faugheen heavily eased down beat VL by 12. Vautour at Cheltenham in the in his novice hurdling days beat Josses Hill and Vaniteux by 6 lengths with a perfect round of jumping, Faugheen beat those 2 by 22 and 28 lengths. Vautour will start the 2nd time in his entire career in open company, first time he beat Ptit Zig be 1 length and a half whilst receiving 5 pounds. Vautour will need to be way better over 3 miles to tackle adversaries like Don, he will need to be a monster to confirm the market expectations of second favourite. Good luck if you have faith because at the moment that is all its driving this horse odds. I think Mullins is putting him in the ocean full of sharks too soon but probably he knows more from the home gallops than we do.
 
Strange comments really. If he gets beat on Saturday then how is he going to be able to make a decision on what race to run in come the festival (the apparent priority) if he won't be sure whether the horse simply wasn't good enough, didn't stay the trip or wasn't at peak fitness ?.

He's either full of sh*te and the horse is as well as can be (my guess), has all but admitted defeat in the KG and is looking toward March already (in which case I reckon he'll be going Ryanair route) or is confident the horse can still win a red heat renewal short of peak fitness.

If it's the latter then the Gold Cup will be all but his.
 
wilsonl said:
Strange comments really. If he gets beat on Saturday then how is he going to be able to make a decision on what race to run in come the festival (the apparent priority) if he won't be sure whether the horse simply wasn't good enough, didn't stay the trip or wasn't at peak fitness ?.

He's either full of sh*te and the horse is as well as can be (my guess), has all but admitted defeat in the KG and is looking toward March already (in which case I reckon he'll be going Ryanair route) or is confident the horse can still win a red heat renewal short of peak fitness.

If it's the latter then the Gold Cup will be all but his.
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The decision between Ryanair & GC will most likely be made by the owner, not the trainer and will no way be based on his performance in this race, unless of course he completely blows up. Does Ricci want two cracks at the GC or does he want the money? I suspect the former. Vautour will only be fully tuned for March but yes, he may well be good enough to still win this. Personally I'm not willing to take that risk, especially going right handed.

Aughex, reading the form that literally is not for me. Vautour won't lose because he beat the same horses as Faugheen by less lengths over hurdles, it will be because of the reasons outlined above.

As for Don Cossack, I really don't see what form entitles him to be fav for this.
 
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