Madeleine Mccann

Originally posted by Honest Tom@May 14 2007, 11:19 AM
If these parents have anything to feel guilty about, they have been punished for it a million-fold. I think all parents have had one of those just a sec moments.
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But it's not a question of her parents being punished, Tom - it's a question of a little girl at best terrified and wanting her parents and at worst, already dead - she's the one being 'punished'.

I readily admit there is not and never will be the perfect parent - we've all taken risks but this was a risk too far. Just because they were allegedly sitting in full view of their door, that isn't good enough - were they able to hear their children from there with other diners and general restaurant conversation going on all around them? Of course not.

And it simply isn't reasonable to blame the Portugese Police and authorities - they obviously don't have the same crimes against children that are more prevalent in our society and are not set uo in the same way to deal with such appalling acts. I hand it to Madelaine's parents on that score - they are not throwing blame around at least.

Of course Tom is right when he says it may well have happened anyway, even if they were all physically in the villa or on their veranda but presumably it didn't happen previously precisely because they were being watched and the opportunity did not present itself until that fateful night?
 
Originally posted by Songsheet@May 14 2007, 08:21 AM
You of course have to feel tremendous sympathy for the family but I am truly amazed at the 'celebrity' responses that have been generated over the past few days and the money offered. Is it because they are such a photogenicaly perfect family unit? Would this sort of response have been generated on some Costs del Sol drug-infested rave with a single mother leaving her child alone while she partied nearby? Am I an utter cynic?
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I couldn't agree more with the above. Not into the blame game, but I can just imagine the public outcry if a single parent had "neglected" their children in such fashion - they would suffer trial by public, with every section of their lives open to scrutiny by the tabloid media.
 
Just because they were allegedly sitting in full view of their door
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Im glad you used allegedly. Because my wifes friend had just got back from the same hotel, and they allegedly tell me the parents were not only in the resturant but also in the bar most night getting sloshed.

Weather the bar is in with the resturant i don't know. She did say though that they were checking them every 30mins or so.
 
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You of course have to feel tremendous sympathy for the family but I am truly amazed at the 'celebrity' responses that have been generated over the past few days and the money offered.

I've never liked the celebrity culture that gets behind these things. There's a fine line between honest well-wishing, and trying to look like a saint for your own good. Stupid things like people sending MSN messages saying "Put a star on your username this week for Madeleine" always grate with me. I feel sort of soulless for grumbling about it, but it's tacky faux sentimentalism and really gets my goat.

Part of me understands that pleas like David Beckham's probably DO actually do something for some people, but as a cynic I just can't see it as more than something to boost his profile. Same as the reward monies, really. And I certainly don't see why the reward monies couldn't have been given anonymously by Branson, Madjeski, Rooney and co'.
 
Just to clarify my feelings on the above as it's veered a little off-topic, although it sounds like I am 'blaming' her parents, that's not where my response to Colin's original thread was coming from - rather the amount of money that has been offered for her safe recovery/conviction of kidnappers etc and just why it has been offered and why such media obsesssion with this abduction while many more have gone by without such scrutiny.

I also do feel incredibly sorry for all the other holiday-makers that got caught up it this nightmare too - don't suppose their holiday was exactly 'relaxing' either!
 
There have been stories in the press that a man was seen photographing children and that maybe somebody was watching Madeleine for days before snatching her. So it makes me wonder if I should've reported what happened on my holiday a few years ago to somebody at our hotel or the authorities. We went to Corfu while I was pregnant with Georgia. After a couple of days both Mr GG and myself became aware of a middle aged couple who were behaving very strangely around Molly. At every meal time they would sit where they had a good view of our table and they could barely keep their eyes off of me or Molly. I was visibly quite pregnant and she was the one who would stare at me, and that on it's own would've just led me to believe she was perhaps jealous of my bump. We were staying on an all inclusive basis, so the children could help themselves to the food. Daisy & Molly had enjoyed lining up in the queue and dishing up their food without our help, we would watch them from our table. This man would follow Molly and stand directly behind her whenever he could. As soon as we noticed this pattern forming Mr GG or I always stood behind the children as they got their food but he would still try to be as close to her as possible. The unnecessary attention made my skin crawl and ruined the holiday for Mr GG and I. We were constantly on the look out for this couple and constantly trying to make sure our girl were nowhere near them. I still vividly remember their faces.
 
I read quite a bit about that sort of thing previously, Gareth, where in the USA missing and/or murdered kids who were blonde-haired and blue-eyed (JonBenet Ramsey, the semi-sexualized beauty pageant queen the most outstanding example of such crassness) being favoured way and beyond any latino or black child in terms of coverage, media feeding frenzy, appeals, and eventual wailing and rending of garments.

Griffin: it might've been a good idea to have had a word with them. There may have been some misplaced attention there - suppose they had lost a girl child who had looked so much like Molly, that they just couldn't bear to NOT look at her? And that the man just felt protective towards her, didn't want to say anything to either of you in case you felt he WAS a creep? Don't know, of course, but sadly some people look entirely 'wrong' when that's the last thing they intend. It would've cleared the air and if they were thinking anything bad, at least alerted them that they were obvious, and you were on to them. A little tip, possibly - to have photographed them at some point, very clearly, and got their names off the hotel manager. Harmless if taken in the context of 'general holiday snaps'.
 
Im sure i read somewhere (I cant remember where) that the tourist board have apparently been covering up a huge peodophile ring present in the Algarve over the years, whereby young children have been snatched and taken onto boats and out to sea and abused without being detected.

Did anyone else read or hear about that ?
 
No, I haven't. Do you mean the British Tourist Board, pro? If that was in the newspapers, then surely it's been investigated by now? Were the children brought back to shore alive, or were they then killed?
 
Originally posted by krizon@May 14 2007, 12:12 PM
No, I haven't. Do you mean the British Tourist Board, pro? If that was in the newspapers, then surely it's been investigated by now? Were the children brought back to shore alive, or were they then killed?
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I really couldn't tell you, as i just read it somewhere i think on a football forum, and i don't think he could provide a source when asked, so it might be absolute rubbish, and pure speculation.

I just wondered if anyone else had heard the same.
 
I did read that there are a large number of people on the British sex offenders register either holidaying in the Algarve and living there and that our police were sharing the information they had on them with the Portuguese police. On Sky news on Saturday they spoke to a British lady living there and she said she had no idea that there were paedophiles in the area and that she was worried that the British police seemed to know more about these people than the Portuguese.
 
I don`t wanna seem like some crazed vigalante type, but it`s about time registered sex offenders were castrated - i can`t see any argument against it.
 
It doesn't work, Euro. Some paedophiles requested this be done to them, but losing one's testicles doesn't seem to stop the urges, which are more psychological than purely sexual. The Americans did try 'chemical castration', i.e., trying to reduce the sexual urge, but that hasn't appeared to prevent the mental desire from forming, even if the equipment didn't work too well. There isn't an easy answer to this, other than trying to find out whether there is some sort of mis-wiring in the brain that can be fixed surgically one day.

And what would you do with female accomplices? I also think that interfering with any prisoner's body is wrong. Put them away for as long as is possible, and certainly jail for a genuine lifetime those who kill children. Don't let them out. But I'm not in favour of slicing people about - it's a step towards execution, which as I pointed out and Gareth (Flynn) took the wrong way, is the punishment for child rapists and murderers in several Muslim countries. Once you've found out that one severe punishment doesn't work, it's only a step towards trying the next phase, I think. Just take away their freedom to mingle in society, since they're not apparently able to control their urges when they're in it.
 
Originally posted by krizon@May 14 2007, 07:54 PM
It doesn't work, Euro. Some paedophiles requested this be done to them, but losing one's testicles doesn't seem to stop the urges, which are more psychological than purely sexual.
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Fair enough, i thought it did. Although my frame of reference is Carry On Up the Khyber.
 
I don't know what to make of this latest news about a villa close to the McCanns' apartment being searched and 'more than one person' being questioned. A Sunday Mirror reporter passing on her suspicions to the police seems to have triggered it all but I'm uncomfortable with the way she spoke rather readily to the BBC.

These things play all sorts of tricks on my trust in people.
 
Whatever you think of the actions of the McCanns, what is important is theres still a little girl out there somewhere, so lets hope she is found. I can't imagine how they are feeling knowing they might not see their little girl again.

The latest reports on the news don't sound too good, with the guys pool being drained

Personally i would never have left my kids on their own, we were out in spain in March and whereever i went, she went too, it was her holiday as much as mine. Abduction would be the last thing on my mind, but even if she woke up alone in a strange room it would be frightening for any small child, they may have been fast asleep at 9.30, but awake and crying 5 mins later and petrified that their mummy and daddy weren't there. Or what if there was a fire, i just can't imagine what they were thinking.
 
Euro - :laughing: :laughing: What happened was that some guys who'd asked the prison doctors to neuter them (if memory serves me right, I think these were Dutch paedos), found that when they were released from their prison sentences, they wanted their old libido back. The answer was that they simply got injections of testosterone and everything went back to, er, normal. Since they'd served their time, this was perfectly legit and no-one could stop them.
 
It is terrible and I hope she is found soon.

However I agree with the comments on here that if this had been in this country Social Services would be investigating why a 3 yr old and 2yr old twins were left alone
 
One of the people evidently being questioned is a woman who owns a villa close by to where the McCann's were staying. The woman has lived in the area for over 40 years and her son has been living with her. Evidently suspicions were raised when this woman and her son set up a stall to help try and co ordinate the police and the media. The son has been particularly "hands on" and the reporter from The Daily Mirror found it a little unsettling that he wanted to be so involved and set himself up as a mediator. The son does speak fluent Portuguese so a feasible explantion as to why he was able to make himself so useful. No one has been arrested so far and 3 people are still being questioned.

IF and I repeat IF this is a useful lead, and the reporter from The Daily Mirror has managed to do what the police may have failed to do so far, then perhaps the some of the overpowering media interest in this case may be justified after all.

If this couple do have anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance, if does smack of the Ian Huntley case where he too wanted to be involved with the search for the missing girls and was (in retrospect) possibly a little too interested in what the police did or didn't know.
 
Seems that he was released this morning. Computer and communications equipment removed from the villa where he lives. Hopefully something can come of this.
 
Not sure who the Mirror think they are, but I suppose everyone's got the right to report anything they regard as suspicious, but I can't help wondering if their isn't a bit Huntleyism going on in their mind. I wouldn't be too surprised to see the police fit someone up for it in honesty given what's at stake in terms of the tourist industry and national reputation etc. There seemed to be more grounds for suspecting Huntley though than the Mirror's come out with. I certainly remember an interview Maxine Carr did on 5live about 2 weeks into the search and was struck by the number of times she spoke about the girls in the 'past tense' (she was the only person I ever heard who did.

FWIW (and realise it's worth jack) I can't help wondering if it isn't some kind of 'snatch to order' kind of thing? I also can't get the proximity of Morocco out of my mind either, as the Algarve would involve a potentially hazardous trip over mainland Europe and wouldn't be an obvious location for any European based ring I'd have thought. A moderately fast boat however, could have the child on another continent within an hour, with nothing like the relationships and understandings that exist between countries. It's not as if there aren't enough secluded inlets on the Morrocan coast.

Logically, the first thing the kidnapper was going to do was escape I'd have thought. They must have reckoned they'd get about 1 - 2 hours before the alarm was raised (they couldn't guarantee how dilitory the police would be, and so couldn't rely on this). This would suggest to me that they haven't used an airport, (as well as presenting passport issues) and the dangers of road blocks being set up across Portugal and Spain would be too risky, especially as Portugese roads aren't exactly that fast (though I'm sure they've improved since I went there). From memory, Portugese railways hardly constitute and escape vehicle of choice either. My God they're as bad as the 7.58 from Bicester Town to Oxford. If the objective was to snatch and run, and get to as an inaccessible place as possible in the shortest amount of time, whilst minimising risk and the chances of coming into contact with the GP, then the sea was the obvious way to go, esepcially as it had the additional advantage of depositing you in a country that wouldn't be onm alert, and with whom we have nothign like the lines of communication.
 
He has a 4 yr old daughter living with his own wife in Norfolk!!!!!!!!!

As time goes on nothing now shocks** me, as to what some supposedely sane??? people do.
Look at the young girl! Was it in Switzerland or Germany? She was snatched and kept in an enclosed den inside the guys house for eight years....

OLD ADAGE
NOWT QUEER AS FOLK...............

But sad none the less that someone has to go through all this being the young girls parents and family.............
lets just hope it gets a positive result and the young girl is found safe and well....

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Going slightly off the subject........
** 10 months ago a guy of 30 chased arseholes wrecking his car on his own drive, caught up with them and was killed by a blow to the head 70 yds from my back door, as the crow flies....

The youth that did it got 6 months custody he's due out shortly.......... :angy:
 
He has a 4 yr old daughter living with his own wife in Norfolk!!!!!!!!!
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OMG LOCK HIM UP NOW!1!1!11!!!!!

Look at the young girl! Was it in Switzerland or Germany? She was snatched and kept in an enclosed den inside the guys house for eight years....
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Austria, I think.


Going slightly off the subject........
** 10 months ago a guy of 30 chased arseholes wrecking his car on his own drive, caught up with them and was killed by a blow to the head 70 yds from my back door, as the crow flies....
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Slightly?
 
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