Madeleine Mccann

When did the McCann's accuse Mr Murat of murdering their baby?
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Where did i say that?

This is the finger pointing

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ns-Murats-alibi-night-Madeleine-vanished.html

This was bang out of line. Murat could (and should perhaps) go after them for this



Up until very recently this important definition was completely ignored by the British media as they fed they perverted voyuerism of the British public.
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This makes me laugh. The Mccanns were probably quite right to go for maximum publicity in this case but suddenly the BRITISH public are voyeuristic for taking notice. No doubt you would have judged the BRITISH public of being callous if they had completely ignored the Mccann PR machine
 
Although it has happened a few time N.O 6, but believe me it is very rare that I side with Clive on anything. Unfortunately , on this one he is dead right, although it wa smy recollection that it was Kate McCann who clearly led the hue and cry against Murat and that Gerry made no comment? I'll appreciate that she's been under great pressure and for a prolonged period time, and can understand tbhat she might be suffering a degree of culpabale guilt and that under such circumstances she's bound to make a mistake, but to use the media to appeal to the police to re-investigate a man whose just been paid out more than her for his libel was quite unedifying.

The relationship between the press and the GP is an interesting one, and quite who leads who would make for a challenging thesis in itself. I've followed the case, but then I've never bought a newspaper on the back of it. I tend to agree with Clive again I'm afraid (though perhaps not as conclusively this time round). The press have most certainly been guilty of whipping things up, and have to pay out over £1M now for their excesses:D The public are similarly hypocritical in feigning disgust publicly, whilst privately lapping it up. However, I suspect that the public would have responded pretty well the same with out the excesses of the print media, and in that respect I tend to blame the press for salacious reporting, for if they had agreed with other to stick to the facts and promote the story on journalistic ability rather than sensationalism I don't think they will have lost sales? In any event, the story has probably ensured that the Express at least, has made a loss on it.

It's possible that we might see attention to switch to the otherwise partly mentioned aspect of this case now? namely parental neglect. One parent is GP (and increasingly looking like she'll never practice again) the other is a heart surgeon who has returned to work. Portugal at that time of year isn't a high cost destination, and neither profession is poorly paid (to put it mildly). I can't really believe there is any point in prosecuting the McCanns for abandonment (and I'm not totally convinced we could legally anyway, nor indeed make the case stick) I wouldn't be at all surprised to see this aspect rear its head though in the next few months. I know if I were an editor who'd just been stung for £500,000 I'd be half tempted to start raising such questions.

Just looking at Clives link; she's a fine looking women Kate McCann, what a shame she opens her mouth
 
clivex said:
Where did i say that?

This is the finger pointing

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ns-Murats-alibi-night-Madeleine-vanished.html

This was bang out of line. Murat could (and should perhaps) go after them for this





This makes me laugh. The Mccanns were probably quite right to go for maximum publicity in this case but suddenly the BRITISH public are voyeuristic for taking notice. No doubt you would have judged the BRITISH public of being callous if they had completely ignored the Mccann PR machine
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A quote from the Daily Mail - an unamed source. Really Clivex, you are making yourself look more foolish by the minute.

The unsavoury voyeurism I am referring to is the truly gutter press accusations levelled at the McCann's that they murdered their child - this appeared in newspapers, many supposedly serious, across the continent. The serious papers masked their culpability in the witch hunt by masking their claims as merely "quoting unamed Portuguese police sources".

The McCann's had every right to use the power of the media to try and alert as many people as possible to the identity and possible whereabouts of their missing child. Any parent can hardly be blamed for searching all possible avenues of investigation - indeed it would be remiss of them not to.

Nobody but them and their doctors know what sort of mental torment they were going through, so this may have led to them accepting bad advice in terms of mounting a press campaign. Being totally naive about the press and its workings, it is little surprise that the whole thing spiralled out of their control - hardly the fault of the McCann's.

Apart from anything else, this case has shown that the idea of being innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the British public is a redundant notion, made all the worse by lurid accusations against a man and woman who have endured the worst possible nightmare any parent can be guilty of.

Warbler I think you will find the McCann's have never asked for Mr Murat to be re-investigated - they have merely been reported has having done so. Two entirely different things, and in view of the reporting of this case, I know which version of events I am inclined to believe.

To quote the recent BBC report on the conclusion of the Portuguese Police Investigtion, "We know has much today as we did on Day 1 - nothing". Of course "Tabloid Clivex", the Daily Mail et al don't sell papers to people like you publishing honest statements such as that.
 
A quote from the Daily Mail - an unamed source. Really Clivex, you are making yourself look more foolish by the minute.
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Dont be ridiculous. This stuff was carefully leaked all over the media...no doubt by their PR agency. If they had a problem with these nasty insinuations, then they would have retracted them. They didnt...

As for suspicions regarding the parents, the majority of of child murders are commited by their parents. Its natural that they would be in the frame

Warbler I think you will find the McCann's have never asked for Mr Murat to be re-investigated - they have merely been reported has having done so. Two entirely different things, and in view of the reporting of this case, I know which version of events I am inclined to believe.
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This is seriously naive. Havent you ever been aware of "friends of" stories before? Clearly there might have been legal problems if they made an outright call. Clearly they were well advised to leak the remarks in this manner

And they have never refuted them
 
Aldaniti said:
Sometimes it is all too easy to lose sight of the fact that this poor child is still out there somewhere.
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Hear hear Aldaniti - at last a voice of reason.

Clivex, you keep believing whatever the press force down your throat. I don't wish this on anyone, even you my friend. But if one day you are placed in the same position the McCann's have been in for the past year, maybe you will understand what they are going through, and then regret having been so quick to judge, for the purpose of sounding clever on forums, at dinner parties, or standing at the bar of your local. Once again, shame on you.
 
numbersix said:
Any parent can hardly be blamed for searching all possible avenues of investigation - indeed it would be remiss of them not to.
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Some may say that it was even more remiss of them to leave their children unattended in an apartment whilst they went out to enjoy their dinner.

numbersix said:
Being totally naive about the press and its workings, it is little surprise that the whole thing spiralled out of their control - hardly the fault of the McCann's.
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Some may say that the McCann's - by their actions on the evening their child went missing - were entirely at fault.

numbersix said:
Apart from anything else, this case has shown that the idea of being innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the British public is a redundant notion, made all the worse by lurid accusations against a man and woman who have endured the worst possible nightmare any parent can be guilty of.
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Probably not guilty of murder, but they probably are guilty of neglect, at the very least............in my opinion.

Numbersix, you appear to be glossing over the fact that the McCann's left their children unattended on the night Madeleine went missing. Everything that has happened since, can be traced all the way back to that act.

Frankly, I'm not entirely sure where I stand on this issue. On the one hand, I can't believe that they would have left three kids alone in an apartment, a fair hike from where they were having dinner. On the other hand, as a parent myself, I can imagine them thinking that there would be no real harm done in doing so - you tend never to think the worse.

The only thing I did know for sure, is that it was only a matter of time before the McCann's became fair game in the eyes of the press. As clivex has pointed out, most child-murders are committed by the parents, and it was therefore entirely logical that suspicion would settle on the Doctors at some stage.

That the press bigged it up, and played the story for all it was worth, should not surprise anyone.
 
Grasshopper said:
Some may say that it was even more remiss of them to leave their children unattended in an apartment whilst they went out to enjoy their dinner.



Some may say that the McCann's - by their actions on the evening their child went missing - were entirely at fault.



Probably not guilty of murder, but they probably are guilty of neglect, at the very least............in my opinion.

Numbersix, you appear to be glossing over the fact that the McCann's left their children unattended on the night Madeleine went missing. Everything that has happened since, can be traced all the way back to that act.

Frankly, I'm not entirely sure where I stand on this issue. On the one hand, I can't believe that they would have left three kids alone in an apartment, a fair hike from where they were having dinner. On the other hand, as a parent myself, I can imagine them thinking that there would be no real harm done in doing so - you tend never to think the worse.

The only thing I did know for sure, is that it was only a matter of time before the McCann's became fair game in the eyes of the press. As clivex has pointed out, most child-murders are committed by the parents, and it was therefore entirely logical that suspicion would settle on the Doctors at some stage.

That the press bigged it up, and played the story for all it was worth, should not surprise anyone.
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GH, respect and all that. The simple fact is this - a man and a woman tragically lost their child. Do you have kids? Well, I know you do. Do I? Yes. Would I engage in the sort of crap Clivex has if my kid had gone missing?
 
Precisely Colin - and well said Grassy.

This whole situation must be horrendous for the McCanns but the fact remains that they left their three very young children on their own in a foreign country whilst they went out on a jolly-up.

I have said this since the beginning - what if, rather than being respectable, middle class GP, the McCanns had been a young single working class mother? Can you imagine the widespread public disgust over that?
 
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"Colin, respect my friend. How do you now they "left your children"?

You don't really, do you?"

Not really sure what you are saying there?!

Are you suggesting that the whole story about them leaving three children in a room was invented by the tabloid journalists?

I thought that fact had been established by the McCann's themselves, but I am prepared to be proved wrong on that, as well.
 
For Heaven's sake this couple did not 'abandon their children'. Do have a sense of proportion.

They were having dinner in sight of the apartments and within its grounds - at a distance that can hardly be described as a 'fair hike'. And they were taking it in turns with other members of the party to check every 20/30 minutes on the kids. In any normal circumstances this would be considered perfectly adequate - esp as people are more relaxed on holiday and kids tend to be shattered at bedtime.

I know when I was a kid this degree of supervision would have been considered perfectly normal. People have got insanely paranoid about keeping their kids in sight 24/7 (which is just as detrimental as the reverse - certainly where older kids are concerned). When I lived in France in a village where every family but us had small kids, no-one would have thought twice about popping down the road for an hour to see the neighbours of an evening leaving the kids asleep in bed - and no-one ever locked their doors either.

The truth is that in spite of all the media hysteria, research shows this kind of random occourence is just as rare now as it was when I was a kid. No parent expects iot to happen, and no-one wants to live in a siege state all their lives as if it might.

The McCanns have arguably been guilty of a gross error of judgment given they were in a foreign country - and no doubt were perfectly unaware that due to Portugal's weird legal system the country is a haven for paedophiles. It's a shame the hysterical UK press didn't make that much clear before the Brits started taking their kids there on holiday.

The McCanns weren't on a 'jolly-up'; they had dinner with friends in sight of their flat for less than two hours, and responsible reports confirm that little wine was drunk - approx half a bottle per person.

They have to live with the consequences of that for the rest of their lives. To accuse them of 'neglect' and 'abandonment' is both ludicrous and imo pretty spiteful
 
If we call what they did neglect, then we are left floundering for a word for the true neglect and abuse of children, of which there is all too much - physical mental and emotional - some of it of a severity which beggars belief
 
Headstrong said:
They have to live with the consequences of that for the rest of their lives. To accuse them of 'neglect' and 'abandonment' is both ludicrous and imo pretty spiteful
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From the Concise Oxford Dictionary

neglect: v.t., & n. 1. disregard, not pay attention(s) to, leave uncared-for; leave undone, be remiss about; omit to do or doing.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to your definition of neglect, Headstrong? I'm all for education, and would very much like both myself and the OED to be put right about the correct definition of the word, as clearly the way we use it is either ludicrous or spiteful, or potentially both.

As for your misty-eyed, gingerbread-house recollection of your time in France, it barely has relevance, given the inferred familiarity of not only the surroundings, but the human traffic prevalent in it.
 
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I don't recall saying the McCanns abandoned their children - and I'm not so sure that anyone else did either.

However the simple fact still remains that the parents left their three very young children alone in a foreign country, in today's world where if you take your eyes off a child for a second the worst can happen, regardless of whether it's commonplace or not. Look at Jamie Bolger - he only wandered off for a minute. It's naïvety in the extreme to assume that nothing will happen and everything will be alright if you 'just' leave them alone for a few hours whilst you go out for dinner and a few drinks. I think you'll find that the original 20 minute intervals were supposed to have got longer between the checks as the night wore on too, didn't they?

My parents never left myself and my brother alone at night and that was 25+ years ago, when the world was arguably a little bit of a safer place - and we lived in a small village community also.

As I say, I have no doubt that the McCanns must be regretting their actions daily and no doubt will do for the rest of their life, and I (nor anybody else on this thread) would wish what has happened to them on anyone. However, in my eyes to say that the McCanns are completely blameless is also not strictly correct.
 
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Would I engage in the sort of crap Clivex has if my kid had gone missing?
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What????
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I have a 5 year old and a 3 year old and I would NEVER leave them for a second.
However I can understand that some might if at the time they considered there was no threat.
Each to their own and in this case they paid the devasting price.
They did not kill their kid and fuck off to anyone that points the finger at them. I'm sick of this and they have a life sentance to live. That's enough
 
I'm with Heads on this. The odds against a child being snatched from its bed are so tiny that parents cannot be expected to spend their lives guarding against it, horrific though the consequences are when it actually does happen.

When our kids were small we did similar things to the McCanns and their friends. We would go to check on them every 15 or 20 minutes. We weren't checking for fear of abduction, rather in case a child might have woken for some reason and needed attention.

Maybe in some people's eyes that was negligent but not in mine. You might as well accuse parents of negligence for handing their children over to the care of others in creches and schools, where they are far more likely to come to harm than when asleep in their beds.
 
Sorry, Grey, but I am completely at odds with your approach to bringing up your children.

That doesn't mean that I am right and you are wrong, just that we have very different ideas about parenting.
 
I would never, ever leave my kids alone sleeping, in my eyes it is neglect. I live closer from my local as the McCanns apartment was from the restaurant and I would probably be reported to Social Services if I went out and left them even if it was for only 30 mins. You either get a babysitter or take them with you, in pushchairs to sleep if need be. My daughters 7 next month and I still dont leave her, let alone a 3 year old and 2 babies, at least if an older child had woken up she has the sense to know where shes at and that I wouldnt be far away.

Being abducted would be the last thing on my mind, what if there was a fire in the appartment that started just after you'd checked on them and didnt go back for 20 mins, they might wake up and wander off, or cried solidly for 20 mins until you came back. My little cousin is 4 and she is inconsoleable if she wakes up, even in her own bed. It has been reported that the twins had woken up and cried during the days beforehand when they were left, god knows why their parents carried on leaving them after that happened.

Holidays are ment to be for the family, when we go away we do everything together. We go out to eat and take pushchairs, if the kids are really ratty and tired, go back to the room, and if you want to carry on drinking, do it on the balcony...get room service....use a bit of common sense

I bet they are devastated they've lost their little girl, mine is away on her holidays with her dad and im missing her like anything. But the only people they have to blame is themselves, if they hadn't been so selfish to leave them in the first place she'd still be here. Im shocked they haven't been charged with anything so far
 
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