granger
Senior Jockey
Pretty sure the McCains think they have something special in their hands aswell to be honest
Novice Chasers 2011-12
- Thread starter granger
- Start date
Pretty sure the McCains think they have something special in their hands aswell to be honest
Bit lost here. How is Peddlars fully exposed? And assuming too much that hes simply avoiding the "will he wont he?" Hurricane surely
im in neither camp and find it very difficult to be dogmatic about novices at this stage anyway
maybe its me but peddlars always looked like a chaser that was going hurdling...for now
im in neither camp and find it very difficult to be dogmatic about novices at this stage anyway
maybe its me but peddlars always looked like a chaser that was going hurdling...for now
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Zenyatta
At the Start
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- 587
I think this is categorically wrong. He definitely could win a Champion Hurdle, especially if Hurricane Fly wasn't there. The very fact that McCain, a trainer I have great respect for, is prepared to forgoe easy pickings in the 2m hurdling division tells you all you need to know. This is a horse who was very good over hurdles but is expected to be even better over fences, hence why he is now chasing instead of mopping up the big 2m hurdling prizes. I know it was a difficult decision to make for connections but in my opinion the hint should be taken.
I think it a fundamentally flawed argument anyway because it is just as easy to say the Sprinter Sacre isn't going for the Champion this year because he isn't good enough. You say he has always been a chaser in the making, but exactly the same comment applies to Peddlers Cross. I can assure you that connections were not trying to buy a Champion Hurdler when they acquired this one from the Irish pointing field. He was just so good that it is was well worth a go. Now he is finally doing what he was bred and bought to do. Dismiss him at you peril.
granger
Senior Jockey
Where are sprinter and Peddlers engaged next?
On The Bridle
At the Start
They are due to duel on this thread for another 13 or so weeks.:lol:
granger
Senior Jockey
It does seem to be the top trending topic of the season
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
When I say he's fully exposed Clive all I mean is we know he's capable of running to a certain standard. That standard was well below that of Hurricane Fly and as he was the perfect age and at his hurdling peak I wouldn't expect him to all of a sudden be the next coming over fences. Sure he could win the Arkle might evn go on to win the QMCC or the Gold Cup but IMO not if something the equivelant of Hurricane Fly over fences comes along.
This sort of debate is no stranger to any forum when it comes to the Arkle. Year after year horses like War of Attrition, Racing Demon, Don't Push It, Noland, Tatenan, Captain Cee Bee, Finian's Rainbow etc. convince people it's just a case of turning up. Never quite works out that way.
Others are touted for the race before they even jump a fence e.g. Champion Hurdle 4th Crack Away Jack who looked certain to make a top class chaser as did Get me out Of Here and neither made the grade. There's been dozens like them and in the build up to the race and one outing can change everything.
Only Sizing Europe who we many consider as being a Champion Hudler winner who never won the race has progressed from the top flight of hurdlers and won the Arkle recently.
To be honest I have no idea how many have tried but it's a rare occurance although I was very lucky to have dinner with Tommy Craig and old Willie Stevenson (not his cousin Arthur) who trained Sir Ken who won 3 Champion Hurdles and an Arkle before most of you were born. An exceptional man and an exceptional horse something Peddlar's Cross clearly is not in either shpere. At least not yet he isn't.
I'm not a stats man but one would have to admit it is a very rare occurance for a top class hurdler to become a top class chaser. Dawn Run and Night Nurse did Flyingbolt did it in reverse, Bula never quite reached the heights they did over fences and he would have picked Peddlar's Cross up and carried him.
When you do look at stats it's a very dangerous game assuming a fully exposed top class hurdler will automatically be top class over fences. Arkle, Mill House, Dunkirk, Crisp, Badsworth Boy, Moscow Flyer, Master Minded, Pendil, Border Incident, Kauto Star, Denman are some of the best chaser I can think of and none of them did anything spectacular over hurdles.
This sort of debate is no stranger to any forum when it comes to the Arkle. Year after year horses like War of Attrition, Racing Demon, Don't Push It, Noland, Tatenan, Captain Cee Bee, Finian's Rainbow etc. convince people it's just a case of turning up. Never quite works out that way.
Others are touted for the race before they even jump a fence e.g. Champion Hurdle 4th Crack Away Jack who looked certain to make a top class chaser as did Get me out Of Here and neither made the grade. There's been dozens like them and in the build up to the race and one outing can change everything.
Only Sizing Europe who we many consider as being a Champion Hudler winner who never won the race has progressed from the top flight of hurdlers and won the Arkle recently.
To be honest I have no idea how many have tried but it's a rare occurance although I was very lucky to have dinner with Tommy Craig and old Willie Stevenson (not his cousin Arthur) who trained Sir Ken who won 3 Champion Hurdles and an Arkle before most of you were born. An exceptional man and an exceptional horse something Peddlar's Cross clearly is not in either shpere. At least not yet he isn't.
I'm not a stats man but one would have to admit it is a very rare occurance for a top class hurdler to become a top class chaser. Dawn Run and Night Nurse did Flyingbolt did it in reverse, Bula never quite reached the heights they did over fences and he would have picked Peddlar's Cross up and carried him.
When you do look at stats it's a very dangerous game assuming a fully exposed top class hurdler will automatically be top class over fences. Arkle, Mill House, Dunkirk, Crisp, Badsworth Boy, Moscow Flyer, Master Minded, Pendil, Border Incident, Kauto Star, Denman are some of the best chaser I can think of and none of them did anything spectacular over hurdles.
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Take point and I am not a stats man either. Stats without a back up logic are a bit of a waste of time I believe
I think that the simple reason CH have not always set the world alight when going chasing is simply that with a CH winner to hand it is far more realistic to go for the prize again rather than risk blowing it over fences. Simple fact is that not many have done so in recent times (cant be bothered to look at list)
I think that the simple reason CH have not always set the world alight when going chasing is simply that with a CH winner to hand it is far more realistic to go for the prize again rather than risk blowing it over fences. Simple fact is that not many have done so in recent times (cant be bothered to look at list)
granger
Senior Jockey
erm Moscow Flyer is a Grade 1 winning hurdler
A quick scan of the first 3 in every CH this century reveals just 8 that ran over fences subsquently. All failed miserably.
Hors La Loi
Marble Arch
Intersky Falcon
Harchibald
Afsoun
Osana
Khyber Kim
Zaynar
Peddlers Cross would be the 9th, and while there's no suggestion he'll meet the same fate, there are a number of decent hurdlers in the above, most were short in the betting.
Hors La Loi
Marble Arch
Intersky Falcon
Harchibald
Afsoun
Osana
Khyber Kim
Zaynar
Peddlers Cross would be the 9th, and while there's no suggestion he'll meet the same fate, there are a number of decent hurdlers in the above, most were short in the betting.
swedish chef
At the Start
Nearly all those named were bred for the flat - so not surprising they had difficulties over fences. I certainly wouldn't consider Osana as a Miserable failure either. Peddlers Cross is the real deal imo.
Khyber Kim went chasing before he was placed in a CH.
Peddler's ruled out at Haydock (even if it does go ahead). Could go to Kempton now.
Hamm
I did say it was a quick scan.
SC
There are some similarities with Osana, as both he and Peddlers were 2nd fav in the CH, finished 2nd, looked to need further, and both won their first 2 chases.
However Osana hasn't won in 10 attempts since, was beaten in the Arkle, and has still (based on RPR's) to get within 10lb of his CH rating.
I did say it was a quick scan.
SC
There are some similarities with Osana, as both he and Peddlers were 2nd fav in the CH, finished 2nd, looked to need further, and both won their first 2 chases.
However Osana hasn't won in 10 attempts since, was beaten in the Arkle, and has still (based on RPR's) to get within 10lb of his CH rating.
Zenyatta
At the Start
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Osana is hardly a good comparison for a couple of reasons. Firstly, he was 2nd to Katchit, who, I think we will all agree, was hardly a vintage Champion Hurdler. Secondly, he then spent another year over hurdles, finishing 11th in the Champion behind Punjabi and was only sent over fences when he moved to Edward O'Grady from David Pipe.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
I agree about Osana but not for the reasons you are suggesting. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Katchit was a first class Champion Hurdle winner. The horse won everything going incluing the Triumph the big 4 year old hurdle at Aintree and loads of other races. He beat subsequent Champion Hurdle Punjabi who went on to beat beat Binocular. He was an outsanding 4 year old and one of the very few 5 year olds to win the Champion Hurdle.
His achievements were astonishing for this era winning 7 of his first 8 hurdle races 2 of them being the most important of the season. Alan King then trained him for one race and one race only that season and boy did he lead them a merry dance from the top of the hill. He was a great little horse who's small frame is what stopped him training on.
Osana, who finished 2nd, ran Sizing Europe to 4 lengths giving him 6lbs in the Greatwood and Sizing Europe went on to destroy Hardy Eustace like he was a selling plater.
Osana was a touch short of top class but trained to the minute plus a bit by the Pipes the chances were always he would run the biggest race of his life but might never be the same again. They should never have run the horse at Aintree after the race he had at Cheltenham but that's another story. He didn't make the grade over fences but I doubt if kept to hurdling he would have ever been the same again anyway.
He never did seem to get over the excesssively hard race he had at Cheltenham. He had made the running in Old Man Pipe fashion, totally exposed to some of the strongest winds the race has ever been run in, ran his heart out and finished dead on his feet.
Katchit was a first class Champion Hurdle winner. The horse won everything going incluing the Triumph the big 4 year old hurdle at Aintree and loads of other races. He beat subsequent Champion Hurdle Punjabi who went on to beat beat Binocular. He was an outsanding 4 year old and one of the very few 5 year olds to win the Champion Hurdle.
His achievements were astonishing for this era winning 7 of his first 8 hurdle races 2 of them being the most important of the season. Alan King then trained him for one race and one race only that season and boy did he lead them a merry dance from the top of the hill. He was a great little horse who's small frame is what stopped him training on.
Osana, who finished 2nd, ran Sizing Europe to 4 lengths giving him 6lbs in the Greatwood and Sizing Europe went on to destroy Hardy Eustace like he was a selling plater.
Osana was a touch short of top class but trained to the minute plus a bit by the Pipes the chances were always he would run the biggest race of his life but might never be the same again. They should never have run the horse at Aintree after the race he had at Cheltenham but that's another story. He didn't make the grade over fences but I doubt if kept to hurdling he would have ever been the same again anyway.
He never did seem to get over the excesssively hard race he had at Cheltenham. He had made the running in Old Man Pipe fashion, totally exposed to some of the strongest winds the race has ever been run in, ran his heart out and finished dead on his feet.
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Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
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Bollocks, Tanlic......on every conceivable measure.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
He wins the Triumph Hurdle by 9 lengths in an excellent time at least 15 seconds faster than the likes of Clestial Halo he tops that by going on to win The John Smith by 4 length a double not many ever do. He then becomes the youngest Champion Hurdle winner in Champion Hurdle in 23 years and all you can say is Bollocks.
Very classy post Grassy
Very classy post Grassy
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rorydelargy
At the Start
Surely comparing the time of his Triumph versus that of Celestial Halo on what was different ground, especially if you then exaggerate the difference (12.8 secs by my count) is the most spurious of arguments, as is the fact that he was the youngest Champion winner in years. That doesn't make him a better than average Champion winner, and anyone who watched that wretched contest will conclude that it was one of the worst renewals in living memory. Katchit was a cracking juvenile,he really was, but he progressed not one jot after.
EC1
On a break
Katchits CH win would be about 5lb shy of a decent renewal imo
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
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I'm hungover and therfore focussing on brevity and accuracy. :lol:
chroniclandlord
Senior Jockey
Totally agree SC. Pedler's Cross is jumps bred and a point to point winner.
Injury permitting, both Pedler's Cross and Sprinter Sacre have the potential to be top chasers for the next few years .
granger
Senior Jockey
As things stand - Arkle
Peddlers Cross (4) , Sprinter Sacre (6) , Al Ferof (7) , Menorah (14) , Cue Card (20) , Kid Cassidy (20) , Overturn (20) , Poungach (20) , Solwhit (20) , Spirit Son (20) , Blackstairmountain (25) , Bog Warrior (25) , Dare Me (25) , Dunguib (25) , First Lieutenant (25) , For Non Stop (25) , Rebel Rebellion (25) , Walkon (25) , Zaynar (25) , Days Hotel (33)
Peddlers Cross (4) , Sprinter Sacre (6) , Al Ferof (7) , Menorah (14) , Cue Card (20) , Kid Cassidy (20) , Overturn (20) , Poungach (20) , Solwhit (20) , Spirit Son (20) , Blackstairmountain (25) , Bog Warrior (25) , Dare Me (25) , Dunguib (25) , First Lieutenant (25) , For Non Stop (25) , Rebel Rebellion (25) , Walkon (25) , Zaynar (25) , Days Hotel (33)