Paris Shootings

It's not whether Kotki is upset, it's clique-y - same as those who call Maruco Paul and Grey Art.

It's not cliquey Hamm (doesn't Hamm mean pimp by the way!), it's more of a habit. If you know someone it's far more normal to call them by their name surely, whether it's on here or anywhere else. The other reason a few will call me Paul is that like Roddy, I used my own name rather than maruco elsewhere, so I suspect it kinda sticks. Even more so if you actually know the individual.

Anyway, when I respond on here I don't respond because I know someone, or ignore someone I don't. Equally I don't tailor said response accordingly, so how can that be a clique.

Marble raised this, and I know him formerly as Marb, and as I started to write this I almost called him Marb by habit.

I don't care what someone calls me. Most of us have made up names which is ever so slightly bonkers anyway. But slightly less bonkers than worrying about someone being called by their real name imo!
 
Coming back on the wishy washy "we mustnt insult beliefs" nonsense, has anyone bothered to think this through? Doubt it.

What qualifies as a religion or not? John Travoltas barmy sect? Or the heavens gate cult?

And doesnt that leave it open for more sinister cults on extreme left and right to cloak themselves in religion to escape scrutiny?

it is a total nonsense that because someone "believes" in something we all have to keep our mouths shut even if that "belief" leads to complete abuse of human rights (yes i do mean you...) . There is no more reason why similar (very similar ...thus the respect) human rights abusers on the far left and far right should be up for scrutiny and a so called religion not. Its a belief either way.

i also believe that if it was american baptists creating the current turmoil across europe then the same voices would not in a million years be asking us to "respect their beliefs". Well i dont believe it.. I know it
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b050nj0z/panorama-the-battle-for-british-islam

i think everyone (especially the apologists) should watch this. Nails it down. Exactly what has been said here in so far that huge numbers of conservative muslims may not acttivate violence but promote horrendous views.

to hear relatively mainstream muslims promote killing of apostates is quite incredible. there is no room for these people here . none at all. its clear that there is growing split in islam too. I think that is widening

i will insult people with these conservative "beliefs" 24 hours a fcking day if necessary. they are scum. they are inhuman and revolting.
 
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I'm slightly confused by this dismal conclusion, even if I broadly agree with it

The first question I'd seek clarification on is whether or not you believe this is both inevitable and unavoidable? You say "I believe we are ultimately heading for a global conflict between Islam and 'everyone else'". At face value that is pretty unequivocal. the answer would be yes. Yet in the next sentance you 're leaving open the possibility that it isn't. "The Jihadis will very-likely get their wish", which introduces some wiggle room, whilst going onto suggest this will be because the west eventually retaliates "there is only so much that 'everyone else' will put up with" (whilst overlooking the fact that this has always been the case for about 800 years now)

The first thing to establish however is the inevitability of the events that you describe. If you do indeed believe that a global conflict is unavoidable, (is it?) are you therefore calling for war? and if not why?

The issue of fundamentalist jihad/terror, can ultimately only be addressed by Muslims themselves. All "everyone else" can do is try to contain it, and deal with the fallout when an atrocity is committed.

But here the beef.

When 'moderate' Muslims appear to support medieval practices such as death for apostates, female genital mutilation, treating women as second-class citizens etc, then it's my belief that the desire to tackle extremism simply isn't there......because even so-called Moderates support positions which I would describe as 'extreme', in a 21st Century context.

It's for this reason that I think that a religious conflict between Islam and 'everyone else' is verging on unavoidable.......because I don't believe Muslims are motivated to do the required house-keeping, to prevent it from happening.

About the only thing which might prevent it, is if there is a global purge within Islam, to root-out the fundamentalists, and hand them over the the authorities in whichever constituency they are found. However, given the vast majority of fundamentalists live in states which actively support the medieval practices outlined above, I have next to no expectation that this will ever happen.....hence my overall pessimism.

It will start with small scale, localised victimisation of Muslims in Western states, and be followed by non-Muslims being attacked in Islamic states in response. In practice, this second aspect is already happening (and not only under IS jurisdictions either - just ask any Coptic Christian from Egypt), and it will escalate from there.

I don't call for a War........but history has told us that it's the inevitable outcome of any conflict (on a big enough scale) between humans.
 
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The issue of fundamentalist jihad/terror, can ultimately only be addressed by Muslims themselves. All "everyone else" can do is try to contain it, and deal with the fallout when an atrocity is committed.

But here the beef.

When 'moderate' Muslims appear to support medieval practices such as death for apostates, female genital mutilation, treating women as second-class citizens etc, then it's my belief that the desire to tackle extremism simply isn't there......because even so-called Moderates support positions which I would describe as 'extreme', in a 21st Century context.

It's for this reason that I think that a religious conflict between Islam and 'everyone else' is verging on unavoidable.......because I don't believe Muslims are motivated to do the required house-keeping, to prevent it from happening.

About the only thing which might prevent it, is if there is a global purge within Islam, to root-out the fundamentalists, and hand them over the the authorities in whichever constituency they are found. However, given the vast majority of fundamentalists live in states which actively support the medieval practices outlined above, I have next to no expectation that this will ever happen.....hence my overall pessimism.

It will start with small scale, localised victimisation of Muslims in Western states, and be followed by non-Muslims being attacked in Islamic states in response. In practice, this second aspect is already happening (and not only under IS jurisdictions either - just ask any Coptic Christian from Egypt), and it will escalate from there.

I don't call for a War........but history has told us that it's the inevitable outcome of any conflict (on a big enough scale) between humans.

It's pretty much the conclusion I've come to as well. Dismal isn't it? But I just don't see how any accommodation can be brokered here

The only unknown factors for me now are timings, scale, and location. Is it possible that it might lumber on as a perma terrorist war indefinitely ?

There is sadly, an over-riding logic once you accept that a future war between what we might crudely call the crescent and cross is unavoidable, and that is that if it were fought this decade, we (the west) have a distinct advantage in weapons technology and population dynamics (particularly in western Europe which is where I can easily see much of it playing out). In fifty years time however this advantage could be much closer, especially if we're unable to ascimilate new cohorts of muslims into our societies (which doesn't seem an unreasonable expectation based on what background music is likely to be playing). I'm also a little conscious of the lessons from the fall of Rome, when the exponential growth of barbaric tribes that went unchecked and who were eventually able to destroy a decadent civilisation from within once they acheived critical mass. This period plunged us into about 600-700 years of dark age as civilisation regressed. It can happen.

If in say a 100 years time you're looking back at the carnage of a third world war you could easily be forgiven for saying why the hell didn't they fight it circa 2020 when they had so many advantages? Having talked about the Spanish civil war earlier, there is another paralell there even, concerning the mobilisation of the civilian population. Had the republic moved to arm civilians straight away, they'd have probably beaten fascism in Spain in 1936 (and who knows what the implications would have been of that?). Instead they tried to contain it from within their established instruments of societal order, started to lose ground, and when they eventually agreed to arm the civilian population it was too late.

At the very least I now think the case for preparing for war is becoming overwhelming and the west needs to be seriously thinking in those terms now. That means building powerful coalitions (not historical ones). The Chinese offered talks about 2 weeks ago but the decadent west rebuffed them. We need to clearly rethink what the hell we're doing with Russia, and of course there's the Indians to consider. If the events of the last couple of weeks have demonstrated anything to me, they've really underlined the role that Europe is going play. The French reported that they had 88,000 police engaged in the pursuit of the Kouchai brothers and another 10,000 troops have been put on the streets of France. Just for context, the UK's standing army numbers just 80,000 now. Our contribution (Europes) is going to be minimal. We're going to be at full stretch in defensive mode

It's going to be brutal and horrible and involves hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths (probably millions if we resort to some of the weapons available to us). That's what war does though. But I really don't see any other outcome, then the slide that you describe. Every scenario I try and sketch out finishes with a doomsday armagheddon at some point in the future, so there is a cold logic that says bring that to a head sooner rather than later when we're in a position to win it and minimise our own losses. If I could see that there might be an accommodation somewhere then it has to be worth exploring of course, but I just don't see where the scope is for that
 
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Mind you, I did conceive of one solution that involved getting everyone so pissed they wouldn't be able to co-ordinate a war. I think it would work! :lol:
 
i have always believed the conservative islam is the one cult that cannot successfully work in western society. Frankly its like sticking a homophobe in a Brighton sauna. The hostility is just too fundamental and as i said before ( and alluded to in Panorama) its a very small step from that indoctrination to actual violence. The number of "conservative" muslims is growing with the most visable aspect being the Niqab which is everywhere in london now. I question why they stick with it here because although we are far from being the most hostile society around , there must be enough to make them feel uncomfortable. Apart from those on the far left that salivate over their bigotry , they really are friendless

As an aside, if an american cult church opened in the uk preaching that anyone who left its clutches would and should be executed, what would happen? That would rightly be seen as incitement to murder and so on. it would be booted out immediately (and thats before we get on to the other stuff)

But on the other hand, i certainly dont see this doomsday scenario with armed squads of neighbourhood watch grannies being trained by the chinese to open fire on anyone with a beard. I think it will be a long term semi hostile stand off. In time fundamentalism may eat it self up, in the same way that believers in the soviet union died a death and the catholic church in ireland lost its grip. the reason? because it is miserable and crap basically.
 
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clivex;598682 The hostility is just too fundamental and as i said before ( and alluded to in Panorama) [/QUOTE said:
God zooks, don't tell me Panorama have been interviewing you
 
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Having talked about the Spanish civil war earlier, there is another paralell there even, concerning the mobilisation of the civilian population. Had the republic moved to arm civilians straight away, they'd have probably beaten fascism in Spain in 1936 (and who knows what the implications would have been of that?). Instead they tried to contain it from within their established instruments of societal order, started to lose ground, and when they eventually agreed to arm the civilian population it was too late.
No, an incorrect revisionist analysis above.
The Republic, overwhelmingly influenced by Stalinist cadres, moved against the Catalunya anarchist militia's who were putting up a substantial fight against the Falangismo and Carlist forces.
The anti-fascist military operations in Spain were severely dismembered by Stalin's directive to eliminate anarchist fighters by attack and by execution.
(Somewhat similar to the Bolshevik aggression against Nestor Makhno and the Anarchist Revolutionary Insurrectionist Army of the Ukraine Free Territory two decades earlier).
 
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Whats that supposed to mean?

I do get a little bored with those that are somewhat shocked that people with genuine values might actually find a lot about conservative islam to despise. The BNP are liberal, libertarian and peaceful in comparison. No question. No calls to mutilate or kill there but its ok to despise the BNP (which i do) but not the more extreme right wing islamists?
 
The best chance we ('the West') have, is to remove our reliance on Oil - or more specifically, Middle Eastern oil.

If it was me in charge, I'd be breaking-bread with Russia, Venezuela and anywhere else with Oil, and moving my business to them......with a view to totally disengaging from any Islamic country. I'd include cancellation of scheduled flights, trade contracts, student exchanges......lock, stock, the fu*cking lot. If they want to go back to living in the Dark Ages, then we can certainly help them achieve that goal......if only we weren't so far up our own arses about Putin and other 'undersirables'.

If this post sounds mildly offensive, and perhaps even a little racist, then I can understand. It's one of the most upsetting things about this entire Islamic Fundamentalist problem. I think it is making me a little xenophobic, which is absolutely not my natural mode of operation.......but these cu*nts, and the largely deafening silence from those who consider themselves moderate, appears to be making me that way by stealth........and I hate them for it.
 
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The best chance we ('the West') have, is to remove our reliance on Oil - or more specifically, Middle Eastern oil.

If it was me in charge, I'd be breaking-bread with Russia, Venezuela and anywhere else with Oil, and moving my business to them......with a view to totally disengaging from any Islamic country. I'd include cancellation of scheduled flights, trade contracts, student exchanges......lock, stock, the fu*cking lot. If they want to go back to living in the Dark Ages, then we can certainly help them achieve that goal......if only we weren't so far up our own arses about Putin and other 'undersirables'.
Can't argue with any of that, tbh. Makes perfect sense to me.
(I hate it how we -- the west -- have to cozy up to Saudi whilst turning a blind eye to their financial underwriting of Wahhabi mosques/preachers abroad and their public lashings of liberals (Raif Badawi) in Riyadh).
 
No, an incorrect revisionist analysis above.
The Republic, overwhelmingly influenced by Stalinist cadres, moved against the Catalunya anarchist militia's who were putting up a substantial fight against the Falangismo and Carlist forces.
The anti-fascist military operations in Spain were severely dismembered by Stalin's directive to eliminate anarchist fighters by attack and by execution.
(Somewhat similar to the Bolshevik aggression against Nestor Makhno and the Anarchist Revolutionary Insurrectionist Army of the Ukraine Free Territory two decades earlier).

I was talking about the first 3-4 weeks of the conflict, long before the anarchist groups ever got going. This was the period when the people were tryign to storm the barracks and get hold of weapons for themselves. I would also point out that Stalin offered the democracies a pact to fight the fascists in Spain and France and Britain turned him down leading to his own signing of the non-aggression pact with Hitler that opened the way for the invasion of Poland
 
Can't argue with any of that, tbh. Makes perfect sense to me.
(I hate it how we -- the west -- have to cozy up to Saudi whilst turning a blind eye to their financial underwriting of Wahhabi mosques/preachers abroad and their public lashings of liberals (Raif Badawi) in Riyadh).

We don't have to though, we choose to, and a lot of it seems to revovle the dead hand of corporate blocs and powerful families. Canada's gott he biggets reserves of untapped oil, and that's always assuming of course that we continue on an oil dominated economy. We could diversify.

This obsession with Russia and the Ukraine is probably a passing phase that is predominently being led by western Europe and one particular individual who still seems to be living out some cold war fantasy. Quite how the hell anyone could conclude that the Ukraine (or parts of it to be more precise) is worth taking a stand over in the wider scheme of things is beyond me. In any event, you're alot better off dealing with pragmatists who follow a political doctrine (not that I know what Putin's is anymore) than you are those who follow religious dogma. It's why the likes of Gadaffi, Saddam, and Assad were your natural arab allies. They were the least islamic and the ones who had made some progress in stamping out fundamentalism. Enemy identification has been a tragic error of judgement throughout (and continues to be so) we do have a potential problem though, a lot of these shiekdoms are rich and potentially able to buy in WMD if we give them too much notice (they might have capacity already? - we're certainly behaving towards them as if they have). Once they gain that potential we have a serious existential issue
 
Gadafi who blew up an airliner and funded terrorism against the west is a natural allie. No thanks . Same for the others. Quite frankly it's not either or. You can dump the fundamentalist states and the dictators if that's the wish.

Venezuela can fck off too.

No stance over Ukraine? So when does annexations of sovereign states demand a stance then? Lithuania? Latvia? Finland? Sweden?
 
Leaving aside the fact that Gadaffi didn't blow up Pan-Am 103 (try looking at Syria on an Iranian contract purchasing a Swiss timer, resold from East Germany, if you want to get nearer) things change Clive. If you followed your logic America we would never have developed a space progamme because they employed nazi scientists who'd killed lots of civilians.

You can carry on isolating the UK as much as like Clive in your own mind, but sooner or later you'll have to wake up to the fact that the UK ain't the power you think it is
 
Uk is the sixth largest economy in the world . And going the right way,...many believe for decades to come, for variety of reasons. That might be unpalatable but it's a fact.

We are certainly not dependent on trade with Russia Syria or Venezuela
 
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Oil is trade isnt it?

warbler is seemingly trying to make out we somehow need the economies i mentioned. We are almost inevitably onto ukraine and saddam.


I haven't suggested boycotting the sheikdoms anyway but I'm sure plenty were saying the same about iran too. Hasn't affected us in the slightest
 
Well well well

Saudi is 4% of our oil import (we are marginally an importer) . Norway is 42%. 27% is Africa and surpsiingly Algeria is 14%. Russia is7%
 
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Uk is the sixth largest economy in the world . And going the right way,...many believe for decades to come, for variety of reasons. That might be unpalatable but it's a fact.

We are certainly not dependent on trade with Russia Syria or Venezuela

What are you proposing, we hit tens of thousands of marauding Islamists around the head with a Bank of England report about money supply? The coming war is going to be fought with guns, bombs and bullets Clive, and that ultimately equals people. We ain't the power you think we are
 
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