Paris Shootings

i have stated that there are strands that are very tolerant such as the beach boys singing surfism. but the %s that do believe in frankly abhorant views are significant if not a majority.

Again, my central premise is that it's unfair to consider all Muslims as of the same. I'm not a Muslim and it's not for me to defend them. I just get the impression that the negative perceptions of a group are often exaggerated. I think even one percent of Muslims advocating execution for apostates is one percent too many but I also think that the premise of moderates being responsible for the extremists or the notion of all adherents being prone to cultish behaviour is extremely dangerous and only serves to cause certain young Muslims (and certain young whites) to feel marginalised and adopt more extremist leanings.

i cannot have for one moment any equivalence between british values on gay rights and islamic. Dont go there or we shall produce some relative polls shall we?

I'm not claiming an equivalence - I'm just saying that it wasn't a long time ago that British attitudes towards homosexuality were overwhelmingly negative.

I am not sure either way whether dogma is on the decline. I would say that during the rushdie affair there were far more muslim leaders racing to support his imminent death than we are seeing now with the actual death of the cartoonists

And that, as well as the almost unanimous condemnation of the attacks by Muslim leaders, must not be understated in the face of the generalisations that persist among the non-Muslim population.
 
Last edited:
And now we have others endorsing the anti Semitic remarks. No surprise in truth.

as I said before, hitler didnt differentiate between secular and observant, so why should they?
 
I did differentiate you cretin, read my post at 3.15.
If a person is of jewish origin but isn't of the crazy idea that Israel is their holy land and that they are the chosen people, I don't look at them any different from anyone else.

I won't repeat myself again. If you continue to compare me (and others) to Hitler and label us anti-semitic, this will be brought outside the forum. First and only warning. I'm not being labelled as such by a nutter.
 
You will do what? Bring it on.... :)


Jews were victims of these shootings. Totally innocent shoppers. And yet inevitably, the thread drags Israel and "the jews" into the whole debate at the very first opportunity. Just like the pub bore who is turns every conversation around to those "black muggers" it is so predictable.

Not one of the shooters mentioned Israel or Palestine. Or Iraq for that matter. They were driven by race hate but without doubt the constant references to Jewish arrogance and the state has a definite undercurrent of "brought it in themselves" about it
 
Last edited:
Clive,

Not one person mentioned it or insinuated that. It's beyond the pale you would even suggest that.

No-one in Paris brought anyone on themselves and that shouldn't need re-stating by anyone on here.
 
Again, my central premise is that it's unfair to consider all Muslims as of the same. I'm not a Muslim and it's not for me to defend them. I just get the impression that the negative perceptions of a group are often exaggerated. I think even one percent of Muslims advocating execution for apostates is one percent too many but I also think that the premise of moderates being responsible for the extremists or the notion of all adherents being prone to cultish behaviour is extremely dangerous and only serves to cause certain young Muslims (and certain young whites) to feel marginalised and adopt more extremist leanings.



I'm not claiming an equivalence - I'm just saying that it wasn't a long time ago that British attitudes towards homosexuality were overwhelmingly negative.



And that, as well as the almost unanimous condemnation of the attacks by Muslim leaders, must not be understated in the face of the generalisations that persist among the non-Muslim population.

But the other side of the coin is that the most visible symbol of hard line fundamentalism is very much on the rise. It's everywhere around edgeware road and east end of London . And that's my observation not the daily mails. A few years back it was a very rare sight

I'm less exercised by the wearing of it than many but few would doubt that it is a statement.
 
Clive,

Not one person mentioned it or insinuated that. It's beyond the pale you would even suggest that.

No-one in Paris brought anyone on themselves and that shouldn't need re-stating by anyone on here.

forget it now but it read very badly. And the constant references to Israel come across badly too.
 
Last edited:
But the other side of the coin is that the most visible symbol of hard line fundamentalism is very much on the rise. It's everywhere around edgeware road and east end of London . And that's my observation not the daily mails. A few years back it was a very rare sight

Yes, the world would be a better place without those shits but your experience of a vocal and antagonistic minority does not negate my overall point.
 
Have to laugh at those that wishfully believe that jihadist attacks are purely down to "the Brits" and Americans evil actions overseas. We will leave aside Belgium for the moment (and not just today's events but the recent killing of Jewish children there) and consider which states have now been mentioned by aq and isis as targets

sweden

switzerland

getting a reality check at last, are we?

but this is a perfect summary

http://hurryupharry.org/2015/01/14/being-an-islamist/

It's too simplistic Clive, and it doesn't work like that.

What tends to happen is you get the aggrieved generation who experience or witness something who react. They pass an orthodoxy into the inheriting generations. Sometimes it gains traction, sometimes it disipates as it fails to travel. In this case it's gaining traction. As the results of those early exchanges play out in deaths, abuses, arrests etc the original spark that prompted the initial uprising loses its meaning as newer contemporary causes come to replace them. Effectively the whole thing starts to fuel itself

I'll give you a really simple example of the same thing working. A few years ago Margaret Thatcher died. Upon her death though, a number of people held celebratory parties. It was noted at the time that nearly all those doing so were too young to remember her or even been alive to have been affected by anything she did. Somehow therefore, an orthodoxy had been passed from one generation onwards and you get a sort of cohort conformity in line with an expectation that starts to verge on duty

There are other examples of where a touchstone moment sets in train a chain of events that similarly leads to the establishment of a terrorist justification/ freedom fighter (lets not forget how these people view themselves, as that is an important component).

Martin McGuiness openly said that before bloody Sunday he struggled to recruit in Derry. After bloody Sunday he never struggled again. Now it is clearly implausible to suggest that everyone who joined the IRA was motivated by bloody Sunday, but once the fire has been stoked, new events take place which assume the mantle of motivation

This is what I think has happened now. A lot of the new generations of Jihadis can't have been that old when 9/11 and Iraq happened. I can understand that perhaps a 10 year old who's lost his family to a drone strike in a Baghdad slum might become radicalised. Indeed, I'd call that logical at one level, but the emerging threat is western Europeans who seem to be buying into some kind of terrorist brand, but it seems inconceivable that someone, or something isn't stoking them, and similarly, it's equally inconceivable that they've been on the direct receiving end in a way that perhaps my hypothetical Baghdadi has

The people who fuel this (hate preachers, social media, foreign governments etc) are exploting what they can and directing their victims/ soldeirs in any direction that they're prepared to go. I think it's also worth remembering what the whole strategy and structure of AQ is about though. Their original objective was to allow local jihadis to select their own targets without any centralised command and control, and prosecute a war according to their definition. It stands largely to reason that people will try and target what they're most familiar with and better equipped to deliver (something in their own country) and this is how, I suspect, what we'd think of as non-beligerant countries, are now getting caught in the cross-fire. I'm tending to interpret it as evidence that the poison has spread and that the whole conflict is now being framed east versus west, and muslim versus christian. It's expanded beyond the traditional bogeymen of Israel and the US now

These latest French killers admitted that it was Abu Graid that proved the touchstone however in their case, and therefore I don't believe you can simply divorce history from this and hope to retain an understanding of what's happening. Equally though I can accept that perhaps we're moving past that point now in the name of pragmatism, and perhaps need to face up to the grim realisation that regardless of what has happened in the past, the present and the future is where we need to be looking. Even if we have contributed to our own threat, if we don't start doing something soon, we could be contributing to a whole lot more through inertia

Having said all that, and i for one wouldn't discount the importance of our own hand in this, I think it's equally simplistic to argue that had Iraq, or Abu Graid not happened, everything would be tickety boo. I don't doubt for one minute that the agent provocateurs would be looking for other examples to recruit off, as inded they were throughout the 60's and 70's. The simple fact however, is that an unjust war, waged in what looked like the suspicious pursuit of crude oil, involving hundreds of thousands of deaths, as well as documented abuses, made for a particularly compelling narrative and an open goal to exploit. We did make that job particularly easy for them, and allow them to develop a decade long narrative that I doubt we can put back in the bottle now. The ongoing Arab/ Israeli conflict certainly spawned hijackings and demonstrations, and of course Lebanon, but it never really threatened global conflict

Even if we do conclude that we've more than contributed to the status quo, I'm not really sure that outside of an academic understanding, such a conclusion survives the "so what?" question. So what if have. We screwed up etc But there are important things to get right now coming down the road, and we would be well advised to start that process now
 
Last edited:
I'm hoping that the process has started already and that the powers that be 'are' doing something, but not in an obvious attacking/military sort of way. Hearts and minds and all that.Someone said to the S.O. a long time ago [and we can't remember who actually said it] 'you do realise we're at war you know' and he wasn't referring to Iraq etc.
 
The simple fact however, is that an unjust war, waged in what looked like the suspicious pursuit of crude oil, involving hundreds of thousands of deaths, as well as documented abuses, made for a particularly compelling narrative and an open goal to exploit. We did make that job particularly easy for them, and allow them to develop a decade long narrative that I doubt we can put back in the bottle now.
I'm left wondering how Boko Haram fits iinto this analysis; their rationalization for the horrible things they do cannot include any perceived western aggression seeing as the West hasn't invaded or occupied Nigeria for a very long time ?
Their official name ( which is too long for me to type out even if I was able to spell it !) translates as "People Committed to the Prophet's Teachings for Propagation and Jihad", which would seem to indicate that the sole basis of their butchery is jihad for jihad's sake and the spreading of Islam.
 
I'm left wondering how Boko Haram fits iinto this analysis; their rationalization for the horrible things they do cannot include any perceived western aggression seeing as the West hasn't invaded or occupied Nigeria for a very long time ?
Their official name ( which is too long for me to type out even if I was able to spell it !) translates as "People Committed to the Prophet's Teachings for Propagation and Jihad", which would seem to indicate that the sole basis of their butchery is jihad for jihad's sake and the spreading of Islam.

Of course it is. The same applies to aq.
 
I'd tend to bracket Boko Harem as being more followers than leaders. The fact that they've just rebranded themselves and adopted a load of ISIS insignias etc also makes me think that they're likely a follower. Would they have emerged with the following that they have without other groups getting traction first? I don't know. They would have existed before Iraq as some kind of splinter faction (there'll be dozesn of such groups across Africa, as there were arab groups in the 1970's) but are unlikely to have gathered up the support that they have. I tend to think they're very much in the tradition of tribal Africa. Radical islam gave them focus but it's probably events elsewhere that have fuelled their growth. Ultimately though, once they get past a certain point in their evolution (a critical mass if you like) external events become less relevant to sustaining them.

Actually there is an irony in this from the same continent. Another group rebelled and protested in 1976 precisely because they wanted to learn English and recieve a western education. Their leadership was branded as being terrorists by western politicians too

I think your attempt to include AQ in the same bracket though Clive is just wrong. As I recall OBL issued two very clear demands that if met would lead to a ceasefire, and this followed AQ through (not that I expect a ceasefire would happen now because the terms have been overtaken by other events, but they were unequivocal that the west had to

1: Stop supporting Israel
2: Leave the Arabian peninsula (Saudi mainly)

These were demands made very in the light of their appreciation of western cause and effect. You could arge that the first one had been a staple for decdes but the second one was the newer one which was the legacy of ther first gulf war when America established Saudi bases
 
Last edited:
Total rubbish.

If you think aq would disappear because those supposed demands were met you havent understood them in the slighest.

For a start israel was never on their agenda hecause the palestinians are what???

Secondly it is pretty obviously one demand after another. Ant twit could see that and cave in once you cave in again

Thirdly its pretty clear that a whole range of their targets have absooutely nothing to do with the above

Your tiresome obsession with blaming america for every attrocity however tenuous has got past the point where its worth replying
 
Total rubbish.

If you think aq would disappear because those supposed demands were met you havent understood them in the slighest.

For a start israel was never on their agenda hecause the palestinians are what???

Secondly it is pretty obviously one demand after another. Ant twit could see that and cave in once you cave in again

Thirdly its pretty clear that a whole range of their targets have absooutely nothing to do with the above

Your tiresome obsession with blaming america for every attrocity however tenuous has got past the point where its worth replying
 
Their third demand was the removal of the house of Saud.

Sorry Clive, but that's what they said pre-9/11. Take it up with the AQ leadership if you think you know better. They wanted all infidels out of the middle east, and they did demand America stop supporting Israel. You're extrapolation over the top of what you think they should have demanded, according to your world view is somewhat defeated by the what they actually issued I'm afraid.

Now you can argue about the sincereity of those demands, and whether or not one demand would have led to another, that's a different entity, but they most certainly had a regional/ global perspective originally and this was a definite factor in the rise of their popularity. Similarly, we saw a whole host of regional groups in the immediate aftermath pledge their allegiance to AQ (what the western media called 'affiliated') this was little more than an attempt to boost their popularity through association. I should also point out that new groups (notably AQ in Iraq) formed as a direct result of American intervention. Until Bush went to Iraq there was no meaningful Islamist presence there, was there? Saddam had seen to that. The only group that existed was something called Ansar-al-Islam that operated in the north under the protection of the no fly zone installed after the first Gulf war
 
Last edited:
Ok. But we are talking about the attacks last week . The closest parallel was the Rushdie affair. Maybe the Danish cartoons. Iraq, any other "intervention" or the "mad Jewish race" had nothing at all to do with either.

Demand would have followed demand.
 
Ok. But we are talking about the attacks last week . The closest parallel was the Rushdie affair. Maybe the Danish cartoons. Iraq, any other "intervention" or the "mad Jewish race" had nothing at all to do with either.

Demand would have followed demand.

Yes and No.

The Kouchai's identified Abu Graid as their own personal touchstone. This is what led them into radicalisation. The next person caught, whose testimony we're able to get hold of will probably identify something else. I think you can argue that the people who recruited/ coerced them had a longer temporal timeline that predates 9/11 though. The cartoons were the target, but the initial spark that prompted the Kouchai's was something that resolves to the American led invasion of Iraq (albeit as i said, if you choose to trace this back to the recruiters, then it likely predates that). We might of course look further upstream to AQ in Yemen and question how they came into existance given that they're the ones who seemingly supplied some of the training for one of the brothers

What I'm finding myself questioning really is your assertion that "the past is entirely irrelevant". Now in fairness there are different timescales you can apply to what constitutes near history and ancient history, (and i think you were doing this) but "entirely?". This is a wider point I'm questioning of course, about how generational grievances can be passed on despite the inheriting cohort having had no direct exposure to it. Once this happens, the 'thing' has taken root. I tend to agree that "demand would have led to demand", but equally, we did help create a particularly fertile environment (an own goal). I also tend to think that the fracturing of Islam would have meant that you'd easily end up with competing and contradictory demands even if you did go down an appeasement route. That shouldn't be used an excuse for blundering into situations that were easy to identify in advance however (Iraq was). Having said that, I'm increasingly sympathetic to the view that even if we have been the architects of some of this (and we have) it doesn't alter the here and now. To use the footballing analogy, I think the ball was travelling towards the net when George Bush came along and attempted a clearance which he sliced, he drove straight passed his own goalkeeper

I'm not entirely sure where I'd trace the genesis of it all to going back upstream however. You can of course go back centuries, but in terms of the modern paradigms I'm inclined to think the upsurge of pan-Arab nationalism of the 1950's was the building block. This was largely confined to North Africa with the corrupt shiekdoms of the middle east often coming to an accommodation with western multi nationals (started a bit earlier in truth)

Through the 1960's and particularly the 1970's we saw an explosion in the number of radicalised terrorist groups/ freedom fighters,
albeit they only started to come to global prominence when they were able to hijack airliners or the Munich Olympics for instance. Most of them were taking western sounding revolutionary, rather than Islamic names and were essetnially Soviet facing in their aspirations. Perhaps the collapse of the Soveit Union created a vacuum? Equally perhaps lending an Islamic tag to the wider 'cause(s)' might have been an easier sell, and this was merely an evolution.

What might have happened had we not supplied them such an easy narrative? Well we don't know for certain. I think you can easily extrapolate that terrorism would have continued along the path it was on, and also that it would have grown. I'm not sure we'd see it at the scale that it currently is though, as I'm far from convinced it would have had the reach. I think however you could argue that it would have got their eventually, it's just that recent interventions in the middle east have speeded this process up

I tend to think that the Islamic revolution in Iran probably galvanised something, but in these days of course it was the Sunni's who tended to be viewed as the moderates. Gradually however (or quickly I suppose in the wider scheme of things) radical islam and religion replaced political philosophy as the guiding force, even though there was a period where two blend (they have to in order to appeal to a wider constituency). What it becomes in effect is a bit of menu that allows the individual considering joining the opportunity to pick the bit they like, albeit once inside the more radical teachers will doubtless get to work.

One of the more interesting elements to Amedy Coulibady of course (seriously delinquent individual) is that he doesn't really appear to know who he was working for or with. He claims to have been involved with ISIS, despite AQ in Yemen claiming it. At this stage, I'm inclined to believe he was so simple he probably didn't know


 
This is too long and too ttenuous.

I think it's fairly obvious that they did not and do not need Iraq to find morons who are willing to kill. Once they follow this religion it is a small step towards paranoia and hate. Any excuse could be found and it has been. It's as simple as that.
 
For what it's worth, whilst there are different jurisprudences within Sharia, I consider a substantial amount of that 28% as either poorly educated and naive, or fundamentalist.

Thankfully, it is a minority and it's a fair assumption that in a few generations' time, that percentage will be negligible.

It's an incorrect assumption, rather than a "fair" one, Kotki.

If you'd asked the Sharia question 30 years ago, you would have been lucky to get a 1% positive return. This is a problem which is increasing, not decreasing.
 
There's an inevitablity about any analysis being a bit tenuous Clive as we're having to deal with 'what if' scenarios. We do have some evidence to work on though.

During the period 1955 - 1990 the Middle East had spawned its share of terrorist activity. Most of these were operating under the guise of peoples liberation movements, who usually had an anti-Israeli aspect associated with them. Such sentiments weren't restricted to these groups alone though. Egypt, Syria and Jordan had all variously attempted invasions of Israel.

At the same time, some of the same governments of the region were aware of the dangers posed by the emerging threat of popular Islamism, notably Iraq. Within 12 months of the Islamic revolution in Iran, Saddam was at war with them in his attempt to neutralise this threat, and also (along with Assad) set about eliminating domestic opposition.

The two critical things to remember here is the scale, and the location. That is to say these movements nearly always had intra-regional agendas and weren't well enough resourced to export their ideology, yet alone recruit into it from outside. For the most part, that synopsis holds true of the situation up until the early 90's. A vast majority of the activity was restrcited to the streets outside of the occasional hijacking or bomb that sought to widen the theatre. Palestine, Lebanon, and Beirut were the flash points, but the players involved wouldn't be described as Islamists. In other words, it was manageable, so is it so unreasonable to assume that this would have been the building block on which things would have developed.

Clearly the situation I've crudely described there, no longer applies. Something post 1990 changed, yet many of the same 'excuses' that could have been invoked between 1948 and 1990 still existed, without attracting anything like the level of support activity. Why? It seem inconceivable to me that 5000 Europeans would rally to go an fight on the streets of Beirut in support of Palestine (well it didn't happen). Sure you might get the occasional few, and you can always find maluable individuals, plus those with genuine grievance who've lost friends and family, but I wouldn't bracket that second description as "any excuse". It's an explanation, and indeed, a quite logical one.

I think it's also worth exploring your description of the participants as being filled with "paranoia and hate". I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you (I'm not doing) but I think paranoia is the wrong word. Paranoia to my mind at least :lol: is the illogical fear of something in the absence of an evidence base to support that fear. One thing the middle east isn't lacking is an evidence base. With that in mind I wouldn't describe it as paranoid. The best example is clearly what's happened in North Africa. Pro-democracy demonstrations break out in Tunisia and the French supply Ben Ali with riot control equipment in February. The same thing happens a few months later in Libya, and egged on by the UK they persuade America to move towards overthrowing Gadaffi. I think it's worth exploring the events immediately post 9/11 and subjecting them to an investigation of the word 'paranoia'.

The only diplomatic success from the "war on terror" was Libya (not sure what Cuba was doing on the list anyway other than to appease a bloc vote in Florida). They were the only country who renounced terrorism, started to round up Islamists, they abolsihed their own WMD research programmes, hosted rendition flights and torture camps, and also turned back a flood of migrants to the EU. How were they rewarded? I think some of the government's in the region can hardly be accussed of feeling a tad paranoid. Saddam might have been another. As the planes slammed into the world trade centre he must have felt the heat was about to come off him knowing full well as he did that he had no part, no connection, and no allegiance to those involved. Indeed, he'd have been almost unique in the region (along with Syria) as being one of the few regimes that had actively been trying to eliminate the threat. Surely it was time that the heat was going to get turned up on Saudi Arabia and the sponsoring emirates? No

I think you can easily argue that western foreign policy has been equally driven by paranoia and double standards (and poorly concealed commercial agendas) and that this really hasn't helped as time and time again it seems we've failed to identify enemies and allies correctly. Some regimes have been given 'pass-outs', others have been persecuted. What I'm suggesting though is that their reaction isn't paranoid, it's backed up by evidence of inconsistent behaviour

Now like it or not, this is bound to create a narrative within the region that the manipulative can exploit in the name of presenting grievance and fairness. It's notable in my mind at least how infrequently any of these Jihadists cite influences involving Afghanistan and the Taleban for instance. I suspect this one is a much harder 'sell' in western Europe

The only 20th century paralell I can think of where civilians rallied to fight for a cause was Spain in 1936, where approximatelty 35,000 volunteered to fight in support of the Spanish Republic against fascism (about 2500 from the UK). They wouldn't have been filled with a sense of paramoia or hate (indeed, they'd be vindicated within a few years) but were instead consumed by a sense of right and wrong in the face of demonstrable threat. That's the narrative that's almost certianly being sold, and when there is evidence to back up its presentation, it's a much easier sell than those which would have been used in the period 1950-1990
 
As an aside I read today that amid khan feels he's more british than farage. Too right he is I reckon. But I recall a French footballer (petit? ) remarking how in the english dressing rooms the black players always considered themselves to be completely english whereas in France it was less that way (well not english but you know what I mean) . Its a bit like the USA, assimilation seems to perhaps work just that bit better?
 
Back
Top