Peeping Fawn Retired

Venusian said:
Will one of you please explain why on earth it's a good idea to have 3 or 4 lines of Northern Dancer in the first 4 generations?

Have you gone mad, or are you all in the meat pie business?
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Yes, seems like some of us need to do more homework - me especially!

Very interesting subject though and you see we are all willing students!

I like SL's suggestion but admit yet again this is based purely on the talent and looks of the horses involved, I do not know his pedigree either. (quickly tries to thumb through large, heavy dusty volume).
 
Shadow Leader said:
Ven, am I talking complete nonsense to ask if they'd send her to Haradasun?
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Well, I suppose it would be ok in the sense that the ND inbreeding would be 5X4X4, not so incestuous as some of the other suggestions. I'd be worried about the 4X3 Danzig with Fusaichi Pegasus up there as well, might suggest a higher risk of unsoundness than you might want to take on.

I don't think it's a very good idea to send a maiden mare to a first season sire - you are really just guessing about what characteristics will be inherited by the foal. A proven sire at least gives you a chance to see if he's likely to complement, rather than mirror, the physical faults in the mare.

Monsun would be my choice.
 
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Cheers, Ven. I was asking since I'm not at all clued up on flat breeding and its associated inbreeding. I was also looking at Coolmore sires, assuming that they will almost certainly send her to one of their own.
 
Venusian said:
Monsun would be my choice.
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He is beautiful. :) He covered Ouija Board didn't he?

I've just been to see him and he was magnificent. Really moved around wonderfully and if you did not know before seeing him that he was blind you'd never know. Had the presence you would expect in a sire of his reputation.
 
I didn't even know he was blind.... There's also his son Manduro of course, though he is unproven as yet, like Invasor and other interesting prospects. Monsun would be my choice too.

When I'm checking a sire's pedigree I go to the RP page, click on

breeding / on the menu across the top, then

stallion book online/ breeding
 
They have never shied away from inbreeding and indeed it would be difficult to avoid it with her pedigree and their roster.If she where mine and i didn't have to worry about selling, I'd send her to generous first and than Dalakhani.
 
Venusian

Could you illustrate a quick tutorial for a luddite your use of the term 4x4x4 etc - how does this work?

Tnx

AC
 
If I may help a little....

With a cross with One Cool Cat northern dancer would appear in the 4th generation pedigree 4 times(4x4x4x4). The no. indicates where the duplication of the ancestor occurs. Up to the 4th generation it is considered to be inbreeding, after that it's considered to be line breeding. There are various theories regarding inbreeding or line breeding to ND. One is that if you are inbreeding it is better to do it through a son and a daughter rather than through two males. Certain sons of ND are considered to be wild cards as they have taken more after the dam than e ND himself.Nijinsky and Lyphard to name two. There is an endless supply of horses who are in bred to ND through males and where very good.The Rock to name one.

Two many crosses of ND have been blamed for lack of bone in the modern day thoroughbred and the ensuing unsoundness...like every other theory there are many exceptions.Inbreeding is used to try and re-inforce the characteristics that already exist , if bad legs is one of them than you shouldn't be inbreeding to ND.
 
At the end of the day, they're all theories and breeding the most talented mare you can get your hands on to the best stallion you can afford is as good a place to start as any.
 
Sheikh said:
If I may help a little....

With a cross with One Cool Cat northern dancer would appear in the 4th generation pedigree 4 times(4x4x4x4). The no. indicates where the duplication of the ancestor occurs. Up to the 4th generation it is considered to be inbreeding, after that it's considered to be line breeding. There are various theories regarding inbreeding or line breeding to ND. One is that if you are inbreeding it is better to do it through a son and a daughter rather than through two males. Certain sons of ND are considered to be wild cards as they have taken more after the dam than e ND himself.Nijinsky and Lyphard to name two. There is an endless supply of horses who are in bred to ND through males and where very good.The Rock to name one.

Two many crosses of ND have been blamed for lack of bone in the modern day thoroughbred and the ensuing unsoundness...like every other theory there are many exceptions.Inbreeding is used to try and re-inforce the characteristics that already exist , if bad legs is one of them than you shouldn't be inbreeding to ND.
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Agree with that.

Would just add that inbreeding via "atypical" sons (or daughters) of the desired ancestor is generally considered a better bet than inbreeding through sons that are very typical of their sire. Nijinsky and Lyphard were rather different animals from the usual ND types.

One of the reasons that inbreeding to Phalaris via his full brother sons Fairway and Pharos was so successful may have been that these two stallion sensations were completely dissimilar both in appearance and aptitude. Fairway resembled his paternal grandsire, Polymelus, while Pharos took after his maternal grandsire, Chaucer.
 
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To illustrate Sheik's explanation of inbreeding "shorthand", here are a couple of interesting examples. The tabulated pedigrees on the links are handily colour-coded to easily pick out duplicate ancestors.

First, the fabulous The Tetrarch, who is 4X4 Doncaster, 4X4 Speculum and 4X4 Rouge Rose. He is also linebred 5X5X5 to Thormanby, and his dam is inbred 3X4 to Macaroni and 4X4 to King Tom:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/the+tetrarch

Second, High Time, not a very well-known stallion in the UK, but a top-class American sire, who was champion in 1928. He is incestuously inbred to the iconic Domino 3X3X2! Interestingly, High Time's sire, Ultimus (2X2 Domino) who was a very successful sire, could not be raced due to unsoundness.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/high+time
 
imagine said:
Sheikh - just curious, were you serious about Generous?
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Semi-serious, obviously if I did own her I would be giving a little more thought to it then the 30 seconds it took me to come up with Generous and Dalakhani. I think Generous is tremendous value and their pedigrees might get on. No guarantee that Peeping would be a good broodmare so why waste the money on an expensive sire first time around.
 
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