Poll: Brexit - Two Years After

Stay or Leave

  • Stay

    Votes: 23 60.5%

  • Leave

    Votes: 15 39.5%
  • Total voters
    38
Migration Watch UK (Hardly a Corbynista crew and firm Leavers) have clearly said the new rules will *substantially increase" immigration which, imho, virtually destroys the leavers arguments. But, of course, I may be wrong:D.
 
Desert Orchid said:
While this is entirely true it shouldn't preclude our right to reflect and think.

If I had thought twice about one of the biggest mistakes in my life I wouldn't have done it. I can't undo the decision and I have to live with the consequences but it shouldn't mean I must never think about the decision I made in the first place.

Leaving the EU will prove to be one of the biggest mistakes in the history of UK government but we're stuck with it because a majority fell for the enthusiastic lies and jingobabble thrust down their throats by a supportive [of the government] media.

Even David Cameron didn't want to put it to a referendum. He thought the vote would go the same way as the 2014 independence referendum, that a majority would carry the vote but at least he could say he gave the nation the chance to vote for it.

Talk about a plan backfiring...
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Reflect and think/bitch and whine all you want, tis your prerogative.
As a remainer in your opinion leaving the EU is a huge mistake blah blah and as a leaver I have the diametrically opposing view simple as that.

For me the key thing about leaving the eu was about who ruled this country and how, ie no trade deal is worth having a foreign parliament and court with primacy over those in the UK, and that overarching government was imo becoming more apparent following the Lisbon Treaty and the areas subsequently covered by QMV ie no veto.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_European_Union

EU QMV.jpg

Question for the remainers, say Corbyn had won (lol) and if we had stayed in the EU but it moved very clearly to the right, could happen, with it's policies in areas covered by QMV which meant the UK had to fall in line despite a very socialist government here.
Would you still vote to remain ?
 
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Colin Phillips said:
Yes.
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Even if in this hypothetical world where Corbyn was PM and he say wanted to expand the welfare state greatly but the now right leaning eu had voted by QMV that member states had to keep their total social security payments below x% of GDP ? I.e. Corbyn was blocked because the debate had been had and the decision been made by the overarching government/what's euphemistically called 'pooled sovereignty'.
And such things then becoming the trend for his tenure as leader.
 
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pawras,

You appear to believe that our own sovereignty means that we can do just what we want. Well, we can’t. We have international obligations we must meet, if we want to sell goods to other countries they must comply with THEIR specifications, not ours. If we wish to make deals with other countries we must abide by the terms of those deals and so on, and so on.

You have your wish so far as sovereignty is concerned - well, almost since the “deal” chips away at a lot of it - and time will tell if that proves of benefit to the well being and prosperity of our country and it’s people. In the meantime it is quite proper for those who wished to remain to give voice to their concerns. One of the casualties of the whole saga has been tolerance of differing views (and it is spreading much further than the Brexit debate). It’s to be hoped we regain it.
 
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I think we are veering off a bit here. There are people like pawras who value "sovereignty" so highly that it would take something cataclysmic for them to remain in the EU. But surely the point is would th country, knowing what it knows now, still vote to Leave? I think not. The view of pawras is perfectly valid but I don`t think it is shared by the majority
 
Desperate Dan said:
I think we are veering off a bit here. There are people like pawras who value "sovereignty" so highly that it would take something cataclysmic for them to remain in the EU. But surely the point is would th country, knowing what it knows now, still vote to Leave? I think not. The view of pawras is perfectly valid but I don`t think it is shared by the majority
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Aye, sorry, I’m a culprit to that. I’m not so sure, I don’t know any leavers who have changed position (nor remainers) but there are a few doubts being expressed. I would say there’s a bit of a drift away from leave and it wouldn’t take many to change the majority since it was a pretty close run thing. At the risk of straying again, I’m still amazed we made such a far reaching decision on a straight majority - even in my Golf Club you need 75% to change the constitution!
 
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Frankel said:
Look what you have started again :lol:
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Fortunately, we're still allowed to debate the matter.
Fwiw, I voted leave (and not to join in, the first place) on purely economic grounds, and am neither racist, or against immigration.
We had a strong (and independent) economy before we went in, and - though it will take plenty of time to get there, we won't be paying others (expensively) to run it for us.
 
reet hard said:
Fortunately, we're still allowed to debate the matter.
Fwiw, I voted leave (and not to join in, the first place) on purely economic grounds, and am neither racist, or against immigration.
We had a strong (and independent) economy before we went in, and - though it will take plenty of time to get there, we won't be paying others (expensively) to run it for us.
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Was the three day week before EU entry or after?
 
Desperate Dan said:
I think we are veering off a bit here. There are people like pawras who value "sovereignty" so highly that it would take something cataclysmic for them to remain in the EU. But surely the point is would th country, knowing what it knows now, still vote to Leave? I think not. The view of pawras is perfectly valid but I don`t think it is shared by the majority
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People on both sides were and are often very caustic towards each other, especially on fkbook and twatter , no side can claim any morall superiority on that score.

I don't know any leavers who have changed their mind, personally I think the result would be much the same, not that we're gonna find out. But I know some soft remainers who have following what they perceive as the attitude of the eu since and those here who felt they had a right to overturn the vote.

I'd be interested to hear your answer to my hypothetical question re whether you vote remain with a left wing Corbyn gov and right leaning eu.
 
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Without dodging the question, I find it impossible to answer. Really how far right are you talking? Obviously there`s a limit to what you would put up with when you join any club or organisation. In reality I just can`t envisage the EU going to any extreme, right or left.
 
Desperate Dan said:
Without dodging the question, I find it impossible to answer. Really how far right are you talking? Obviously there`s a limit to what you would put up with when you join any club or organisation. In reality I just can`t envisage the EU going to any extreme, right or left.
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Whether the EU would ever actually turn much further right or left doesn't matter and the possibilities of such are another debate entirely.

So to be more succinct, say the UK is still in the EU with all the single market, customs union and freedom of movement stuff and has elected Corbyn as PM and is embarking on his socialist agenda, however due to xyz reasons the EU has turned right, the amount being equivalent to a thatcherite government. Just how far left or right you view each depends on your own personal overton window.

Now as PM Corbyn wants to expand the welfare state greatly but the now right leaning eu had voted by QMV that member states had to keep their total social security spending below x% of GDP ? I.e. Corbyn was blocked because the debate had been had, the UK was outvoted and the decision had been made by the overarching government/what's euphemistically called 'pooled sovereignty'.
And such things then become the trend for his tenure as leader.

That was enough info for Colin Phillips and he was a remain regardless.

Would you then want to still vote to remain in the EU?
 
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The strange thing about brexit is that the far left and the far right we’re both anti EU and they just seemed to meet up. I ended up not knowing where I was politically.
 
Surely you see it`s impossible to give any sensible response, even to that scenario. There are so many unknowns. What are the "xyz" reasons. What is "x% of GDP"? How do you define Corbyn`s "socialist agenda"? Define what you mean by a "thatcherite government"? You seem intent on provoking me to say I would prefer we stay in the EU, come what may! Your setting out scenario`s which are clearly never going to happen. And, by the way, Corbyn is no longer the Labour leader
 
And, by the way, many who know Johnson and Corbyn have told us that, at heart, Corbyn was anti-EU and Johnson, the serial liar, was pro-EU. We`re doomed I tell ya:surrender:.
 
Desperate Dan said:
Surely you see it`s impossible to give any sensible response, even to that scenario. There are so many unknowns. What are the "xyz" reasons. What is "x% of GDP"? How do you define Corbyn`s "socialist agenda"? Define what you mean by a "thatcherite government"? You seem intent on provoking me to say I would prefer we stay in the EU, come what may! Your setting out scenario`s which are clearly never going to happen. And, by the way, Corbyn is no longer the Labour leader
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Sadly now you're just being evasive.
It's hypothetical so doesn't matter whether Corbyn can ever be PM or not or which direction the EU might go in reality.
As such it doesn't matter why the EU has turned right it just has or what the exact x% of GDP is, the point being legislation would mean the UK was unable to pursue the expanding the welfare state as Corbyn wanted to. I don't need to define the 'socialist agenda' or the 'thatcherite government' , the point being the UK government wants to go in more socialist direction but is unable to do so because it is contrary to the legislation defined in the EU which is heading in the opposite direction politically.

I'm not trying to force a remain or leave from you, I'm just curious whether you'd still want to remain in the EU in the clear scenario I have given.

Me I know exactly when I would vote to be in the EU.
 
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That sounds like the arguments put forward by the far left. Who said we couldn’t re nationalise the railways if we were in the EU. Even though French railways are nationalised (or partly nationalised). I think. And why Corbyn was always anti EU. But never had the decency to say it outright.
 
reet hard said:
IIRC, Corbyn voted for Brexit.
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My point was that both Corbyn and Johnson voted against their true beliefs...allegedly!! And there is no proper evidence that Corbyn voted for Brexit. Seems to have been yet another of the many Corbyn smears that the gullible swallowed.
 
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pawras said:
Reflect and think/bitch and whine all you want, tis your prerogative.
As a remainer in your opinion leaving the EU is a huge mistake blah blah and as a leaver I have the diametrically opposing view simple as that.
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When exactly did I bitch and/or whine in my post?

I worded it carefully to avoid the kind of disrespectful comments so prevalent in this kind of debate.

I accept that you are diametrically opposed to me and respect that.

Where you let yourself down badly is in referring to Scotland as "jockland".

Do you refer to Wales as "taffland"?

To Ireland as "paddyland"?

I will let my imagination run riot regarding how you might refer to countries beyond these islands...
 
One man’s ‘reflection’ on his purely personal opinion, “Brexit is a disaster, tory governments are a disaster blah blah boo hoo”, is another man’s bitching and whining.

Personally I view leaving the fourth reich to be one of the best things to have happened to the UK since beating the third reich , but I know that’s just my view and I’m not about to present it as fact.

Just like I would have viewed a Corbyn gov a total disaster, I had in fact made plans to leave in that scenario, where as some here would have been dancing in the street.

I see we get the usual comments on here, re brexit voters stated as or insinuated as racist, stupid, didn’t know what they were voting for etc etc. Believe me my view of remainers is even more negative but I can leave that out cos you lost and ergo don’t matter for now at least.

Amuses me that for my very clear question re the hypothetical scenario of UK turning left and the EU turning right, would remainers still vote remain, that I had only one direct answer and another one just deciding they didn’t want to answer and chose to evade and obfuscate instead.

But doesn’t half as much as amuse as the fact that if Corbyn had stuck to his Bennite anti eu roots he could easily have been pm now and implementing his socialist dystopia. So much for his ‘principles’ lmfao.
 
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