Queen Elizabeth II Stakes

There will be the comments, and the first thing that Willie Carson said was maybe Henry was over the top and so forth;

Sorry Gal thought you said it not Gareth. Didn't look properly.

I didn't think Henry was an unbeatable horse but I did think he was better than Raven's but I was wrong.

I still think people will say after today, Henry is better than that. But peopel on this forum straight after the race started saying Henry wasn't at his best and so on, so suggests that they are not giving the winner credit.
 
:) Well deserved win for RP and well worth the wait. Gosden and Fortune have finally got the tactics right with RP and he's shown himself to his true ability.

Personally I think the first two have both run really well, take nothing away from HTN as he's set the standard for the distance all season but the best horse won on the day.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Are you seriously trying to suggest that EC1 thinks Henry is in any way "unbeatable"?
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No you are missing my point !!!!!

I stated that I don't think Ravens will get the credit he deserves because people will say Henry was not at his best, which those comments suggest.

Regardless of whether they rate Henry or Ravens better, the image given by the press and also by a couple of comments here suggest some people feel Henry was not at his best which I find very hard to believe.

It's irelivent how you feel about the horses, but looking for excuses for the 2nd instead of suggesting the winner is a better horse is hard on a horse that has been bridging the gap all season.
 
I really thought Henry would win again today and my gut reaction is that he was slightly below par today. Maybe going over the top, maybe the ground was not quite right for him but they've never used the ground as an excuse for Raven's Pass and he thoroughly deserved this big win.

We might get a decent price about Henry next time, if there is a next time.
 
We will never know whether the reroute etc had any effect on Henry, or if the ground was false for him. He ran a blinder and was trying his best.

I really wanted him to win, I like him a lot. BUT - Raven's Pass is a good horse too and all credit to connections for keeping him going all year and finally getting their big win.

At least the race went without hitches, no 'cheating' and no pile up from all the pacemakers getting in the way.

It's been an enjoyable season watching the milers. I still prefer Henry to the others and probably always will, but everyone can, and should have their own favourites.

The French horse looked fab before he got heated up.

Will be interesting to see where Henry goes next, or if they keep him in training.
 
Chris

I will reserve judgement on whether RP has run to his best until I've done the speed figures...I personally value those and seeing as how RP ran a superb one at 2 ..I have a sort of benchmark to work to.

If you read the thread I have been saying that Henry would not run to his best..but not due to the ground..thats still open to debate..Gal really believes it...I am not so sure.

either way lots of us have lost money on the race for different reasons

I would rather have backed Henry and at least had a run for my money..I really should have layed some of my stake off on Tamayuz before they even raced..but I didn't...more fool me.

My reaction to the result was my first snapshot...your comments about the change of tactics are valid and you may well be right that RP is now superior to HTN..but is todays run superior to Henry at his best?
 
EC1 said:
Chris

I will reserve judgement on whether RP has run to his best until I've done the speed figures...I personally value those and seeing as how RP ran a superb one at 2 ..I have a sort of benchmark to work to.

If you read the thread I have been saying that Henry would not run to his best..but not due to the ground..thats still open to debate..Gal really believes it...I am not so sure.

either way lots of us have lost money on the race for different reasons

I would rather have backed Henry and at least had a run for my money..I really should have layed some of my stake off on Tamayuz before they even raced..but I didn't...more fool me.

My reaction to the result was my first snapshot...your comments about the change of tactics are valid and you may well be right that RP is now superior to HTN..but is todays run superior to Henry at his best?
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The 3rd is a consistent form guide for me and the way they have beaten her makes them look good. The way I look at it, is Henry is at most 1/2L better than Ravens on recent form, so it would be hard to say that he was over the top or not at his best. From riding horses and some good horses when they are off the boil, they rarely just run 2-3lb below par. That would suggest to me if Henry was not at his best surely it has to be questioned whether Ravens has run to his best. For me they have pulled so far clear it would be very hard to suggest that Henry has not ran to his form.

I have just run my figures and they come out

Raves 117
Henry 115

3rd 104
4th 95
5th 83
6th 26 (pace)
7th 20 (pace)

Now at Goodwood they recorded

1st 117, 2nd 116

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So for me there is barely anything in the performance and therefore I feel the horses have run to form. The 3rd has matched its figure of its win at Royal Ascot. Whilst 4th backwards have produced career lows for me.
 
EC1 said:
either way lots of us have lost money on the race for different reasons

I would rather have backed Henry and at least had a run for my money..I really should have layed some of my stake off on Tamayuz before they even raced..but I didn't...more fool me.
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Absolute nightmare as usual for me. Had a bid in for £60 @ 4s on the winner but cancelled it after seeing the loose ground and hearing Gosden`s comments re the Breeders Cup. Ironically if i`d been at work (only get one sat in three off) I wouldn`t have known any of that and i`d have had a reasonable winner. Such is life.
 
I can imagine - it's so hard to stick by a horse with your cold hard cash when he keeps coming up short.
 
I think there was very little indeed between Ravens Pass, New Approach, Rio De La Plata and Ibn Khaldun at the end of last season - all looked very exciting prospects, esp the first two. This season HTN caught them all up and as a miler overtook them - but now that RP is being ridden as he needs to be, there is still very little between RP and HTN.

Let's just acknowledge have two very good milers here! I didn't bet on the race - would have backed the French horse if I had - and I'm glad to see RP get his just deserts
 
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for what it's worth I got a speed figure for Ravens Pass yesterday as a 132...which is 1lb more than the his best 2yo speed figure in the Solario last year...basically the horse was back to his brilliant 2yo best.

I'm happy to conclude from that that he is a worthy mile champ this year...HTN just met a better horse..ridden correctly this time though.
 
Apparently Gosden is favouring the Classic rather than the Mile in the Breeders' Cup. That sounds like one of the daftest decisons since he thought Oasis Dream was a miler. Ravens Pass has no chance of finishing in the first 3 in the Classic. He is a miler pure and simple, a top-class one to boot and has that race at the Breeders Cup at his mercy. Come on John, don;t be a fool, do the right thing.
 
Seems that because he's got so much experience in the US, that he almost tries to be too clever about placing his horses there.
 
davidjohnson said:
Apparently Gosden is favouring the Classic rather than the Mile in the Breeders' Cup. That sounds like one of the daftest decisons since he thought Oasis Dream was a miler. Ravens Pass has no chance of finishing in the first 3 in the Classic. He is a miler pure and simple, a top-class one to boot and has that race at the Breeders Cup at his mercy. Come on John, don;t be a fool, do the right thing.
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Well, you know, that's interesting.

Plenty disagreed with me when I mooted the idea of stepping Raven's Pass up in trip slightly after Goodwood. I'd certainly be interested to see him upped in trip since I've a hunch it may suit him. Again, in going away from HTN yesterday in the final stages I thought again that he'd be interesting over slightly further.
 
It just strikes me as a really poor value play. Why try at a trip your not bred to get, on a surface you've no experience of, when at the same meeting chances are you'll be in against a weaker field, at the trip you've shown your the best in Europe at, and on a tight track that should show you at your optimum.

And yes I am on ante-post!
 
I must say beforehand I was guilty of seeing the race as a straight match between HTN and Tamayuz. On that front HTN trounced his French rival, who may have had excuses, so it seems difficult to argue HTN was over the top. That is an easy excuse to make especially at this time of year, and was of course one tabled after his Longchamp eclipse.

However, he has run to an RPR of 127 only 1lb below his best ever recorded in the St James's Palace Stakes.

I think that on the day Raven's Past has turned him over fair and square, the change of tactics on the Gosden charge have to the main reason.

The two of them remind me of the close fought duels between Kings Lake and To Agori Mou, and were they meet again in ideal conditions I would not like to call it.

HTN has lost nothing in defeat, whilst for supporters of Raven's Pass the victory is tempered by the thought of what might have been, the animal having clearly been undone all season by abysmal tactical decisions by Messrs Gosden and Fortune. Of course I am pocket talking to an extent here as I backed him in the Craven and still cannot understand how Twice Over beat him - and of course with the benefit of hindsight we now know a more positive ride that day would surely have won him the race.
 
Shadow Leader said:
Well, you know, that's interesting.

Plenty disagreed with me when I mooted the idea of stepping Raven's Pass up in trip slightly after Goodwood. I'd certainly be interested to see him upped in trip since I've a hunch it may suit him. Again, in going away from HTN yesterday in the final stages I thought again that he'd be interesting over slightly further.
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After his defeats in the Dewhurst, Craven and 2,000 Gns, I seem to recall there were some drawing the conclusion he didn't see out a truly run mile, and that there was even talk at one stage of running him in the Jersey Stakes over 7f.

However, with the information we now have, which is the horse easily stays 1m and needs to be ridden handy to win over that trip, the question of whether he could step up the extra 2f is a fair one.

I can also sympathise with Gosden as on breeding Raven's Pass should be able to handle the A/W without any problem being a half brother to a very useful American dirt performer and being by the same sire as Smarty Jones.

I think where the problem lies is that the Classic often attracts the attention of European trainers thinking they can try a miler over the extended trip because a flat oval American track should conteract any stamina doubts. However American races are run at such furious end-to-end gallops that, if anything, stamina is at a premium, not withstanding the apparently easy nature of the tracks. For that reason I would have doubts about him staying the trip in what will probably be a typically breakneck pace.

His half brother Gigawatt seemed to lack stamina the two occasions he went further than a mile, once on dirt and once on turf.
 
However American races are run at such furious end-to-end gallops that, if anything, stamina is at a premium, not withstanding the apparently easy nature of the tracks. For that reason I would have doubts about him staying the trip in what will probably be a typically breakneck pace.
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Normally I'd agree 100%. The single biggest factor facing a European trained horse is not the surface, but the attritional style of racing: go out hard and try not to stop first. However, the artificial surfaces have affected the style of racing at other tracks and it's hard to know whether the same will happen at Santa Anita given the limited number of races run on the ProRide surface there.
 
davidjohnson said:
It just strikes me as a really poor value play. Why try at a trip your not bred to get, on a surface you've no experience of, when at the same meeting chances are you'll be in against a weaker field, at the trip you've shown your the best in Europe at, and on a tight track that should show you at your optimum.
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Totally agree, DJ. Combination of fast ground, tight track and likely strong gallop should suit him down to the ground, even if he is poorly drawn.

Without wanting to be seen as covering my tracks after saying I didn't think Ravens Pass would beat Henrythenavigator (hands up- I was wrong), I don't think the latter was at his best on Saturday. The race was over two furlongs out when Murtagh asked Henry to quicken and he never looked likely to get near Ravens Pass; for whatever reason he didn't produce the turn of foot we saw at the Royal Meeting. Didn't look to be striding out fully either IMO.
 
trackside528 said:
Totally agree, DJ. Combination of fast ground, tight track and likely strong gallop should suit him down to the ground, even if he is poorly drawn.

Without wanting to be seen as covering my tracks after saying I didn't think Ravens Pass would beat Henrythenavigator (hands up- I was wrong), I don't think the latter was at his best on Saturday. The race was over two furlongs out when Murtagh asked Henry to quicken and he never looked likely to get near Ravens Pass; for whatever reason he didn't produce the turn of foot we saw at the Royal Meeting. Didn't look to be striding out fully either IMO.
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Although I was and still am a big HTN fan, I disagree. I think he and Raven's Pass have got closer in form terms everytime they have run, and this time Raven's Pass, benefitting from a change of tactics, got the decision. I think the two have run up to their Sussex Stakes form, with RP finding improvement past HTN due to the way the race panned out this time.

Considering Gosden's comments beforehand, RP should have been at least as inconvenienced by the loose surface as HTN was. So given the comparative form figures, I think it is impossible to make an argument that HTN was not himself. He was beaten by the better horse on the day, and as I said earlier, if they meet again you wouldn't want to be betting against a reversal as there is clearly very little between them.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Normally I'd agree 100%. The single biggest factor facing a European trained horse is not the surface, but the attritional style of racing: go out hard and try not to stop first. However, the artificial surfaces have affected the style of racing at other tracks and it's hard to know whether the same will happen at Santa Anita given the limited number of races run on the ProRide surface there.
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Agree, the jury is out on the new Santa Anita surface, and the other tracks seem to give conflicting messages - Hollywood Park has no bias, Keeneland favours the speedsters, while Del Mar seems to inexplicably change from meet to meet.

I think what is true however is that irrespective of the surface, the pace of the races from the get go are still typically fast, so even if on Breeders Cup day the races appear to be favouring closers, I would be fairly confident the Classic in particular will still be run in such a way as to find out suspect stayers - Raven's Pass being one of those.
 
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