Euronymous
Senior Jockey
No, I don't believe Flat Racing has changed, the Jumps have just got better and more professional. The main reason MC Pipe was so dominant was because he was the first trainer in that sphere who actually got his horses fit.
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Desert Orchid
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I think Pipe sailed very close to the wind between getting them fit and souring them. I also think the race tactics he employed were as much a part of his success: set off fast (had to be hard fit and ready to do that), take a breather mid-race and then when the rest were making their effort to close kick on again. But very few of his horses followed up within a a few weeks of a win.
I'd find it hard to believe that Winter, Walwyn, Rimmell, Dickinson, etc, could get their horses very fit.
EC1
On a break
yes..when others weren't bothered...ie aiming at Cheltenham..basically like nicholls last year mopping all the saturday prizes up whilst everyone else was thinking of cheltenham..Pipe was hammering them in from October onwards..nothing has changed...Pipe treated the game like a business thats all..whilst most wanted the festival wins..nowts changed at all..same thing now.
you generalise about the past so much..horses were fit for big races then as now..i'll wager you weren't around in the 70's..how can you make such large assumptions with no evidence whatsover?
Its like saying olympic finals were easier to win in the 70's..relatively..no they weren't
i'm amazed you haven't been challenged about this stuff..its basically saying it were an amateur hour in the past...and now its all different..its not imo
you can compare any sport form the past with the present..and it "looks" more professional now..more glossy..but competition in any sport is relative to contempary...you aren't allowing for that
its a bit like me saying in the 70's..oooh racing in the 30's looks amateur hour..for a start its all in black and white..i'll bet no one got their hosses [luv u Clive] fit etc.
everything is relative..and modern always looks more glossy
when colour TV came in i can tell you..that in 1970..images fromthe 1930's looked like the stone age comapared with images shown in colour..it was like another world..same now..we have HD tv glossing it all up..and the original colour footage from the 70's looks like something from 100 years ago.
Its a mind trick partly when you look at old footage..i'm 60 now...i've seen the changes..but competiton in any sport is the same,,,and champions in each era earned that by beating their contemparies easily..all this "modern is superior" stuff is false,,created by people who never lived in the times they wish to reduce in stature.
Don't fall for the gloss effect..thats all it is
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edgt
Senior Jockey
Jockeys are an awful lot fitter today as well.
i remember WPM in an interview last year talking of Ruby going to the National Sports arena while injured and coming back to WPM delighted that he had a new diet that enabled him to ride 2lb lighter than he had previously; compared to the 1970s when the leading NH lights were Biddlecombe, Brogan and Carberry who "swung from Chandeliers" for exercise.
Add that to all weather gallops, all the veterinary and animal physiotherapy aids and you have much fitter horses and jockeys at all levels from p2p to grade 1;
the race programme has also extended so any decent horse can avoid handicaps all season through yet have as full a race programme as they desire.
i remember WPM in an interview last year talking of Ruby going to the National Sports arena while injured and coming back to WPM delighted that he had a new diet that enabled him to ride 2lb lighter than he had previously; compared to the 1970s when the leading NH lights were Biddlecombe, Brogan and Carberry who "swung from Chandeliers" for exercise.
Add that to all weather gallops, all the veterinary and animal physiotherapy aids and you have much fitter horses and jockeys at all levels from p2p to grade 1;
the race programme has also extended so any decent horse can avoid handicaps all season through yet have as full a race programme as they desire.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
I've watched videos ofraces from the 70s and the jumps horses don't look as fit as they are now. I know it's only one race but that vid I posed of Borough Hill Lad's King George - three horses, no atmosphere. Plus you have the fact that the 2001 Festival was outright cancelled. That would never happen now. It's too big.
As for your second point, football is worse now than it was in the 70s and 80s.
granger
Senior Jockey
Football is dead.
We should never forget the past, but advances in all known sciences have led to a different type of beast existing now.
It is hard to believe a festival not happening now giving the monster it's become.
The G1 novice chase at Fairyhouse today is a clear example of no one bar the UK raider having the foresight to aim at this race with a stable top stalwart.
We should never forget the past, but advances in all known sciences have led to a different type of beast existing now.
It is hard to believe a festival not happening now giving the monster it's become.
The G1 novice chase at Fairyhouse today is a clear example of no one bar the UK raider having the foresight to aim at this race with a stable top stalwart.
Desert Orchid
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I think it's an interesting debate that C4 should attempt to take forward in its down time (instead of go-karting or Rishi trying to ride).
It should investigate and seek evidence from retired trainers and assistant trainers about how horses were trained, what technology was available back in the day and what is being used now and how it impacts upon fitness and/or performance.
Was Pipe, for example, first to use breathing apparatus to monitor lung output/intake?
Can trainers predict fairly accurately using technology (as opposed to, say, dosage) a horse's stamina?
I remember Aidan O'Brien talking about Yeats after one of his Ascot Gold Cup wins (the first?) about the size of the horse's heart and its beat rate. he specified the average racehorse's heart rate and to what bpm it rises when racing whereas Yeats's started off lower and didn't reach that level until much later. I find info like fascinating and we don't get enough of that.
I remember reading that Colin Bell (Man City & England and, iirc, nicknamed 'Nijinsky') had a resting heart rate of something like 54. I noted my own at the time my own was 56 so I was quite chuffed. Like EC1, I am also 60 and my resting heart rate is still 56.
I remember reading that Monica Dickinson got her horses fit by galloping them up the Yorkshire hills. That would get them pretty fit, I'd imagine. And how long ago was that?
It's definitely true about jockeys, though. The modern pro is a proper sportsman.
I think if you watch, say, the recording of Galway Blaze's Hennessy, it would be very hard to argue that that race wasn't fast run and a horse would need to have been very fit to finish the way he did, and he was with a relatively small (but shrewd) stable.
It should investigate and seek evidence from retired trainers and assistant trainers about how horses were trained, what technology was available back in the day and what is being used now and how it impacts upon fitness and/or performance.
Was Pipe, for example, first to use breathing apparatus to monitor lung output/intake?
Can trainers predict fairly accurately using technology (as opposed to, say, dosage) a horse's stamina?
I remember Aidan O'Brien talking about Yeats after one of his Ascot Gold Cup wins (the first?) about the size of the horse's heart and its beat rate. he specified the average racehorse's heart rate and to what bpm it rises when racing whereas Yeats's started off lower and didn't reach that level until much later. I find info like fascinating and we don't get enough of that.
I remember reading that Colin Bell (Man City & England and, iirc, nicknamed 'Nijinsky') had a resting heart rate of something like 54. I noted my own at the time my own was 56 so I was quite chuffed. Like EC1, I am also 60 and my resting heart rate is still 56.
I remember reading that Monica Dickinson got her horses fit by galloping them up the Yorkshire hills. That would get them pretty fit, I'd imagine. And how long ago was that?
It's definitely true about jockeys, though. The modern pro is a proper sportsman.
I think if you watch, say, the recording of Galway Blaze's Hennessy, it would be very hard to argue that that race wasn't fast run and a horse would need to have been very fit to finish the way he did, and he was with a relatively small (but shrewd) stable.
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Desert Orchid
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The football argument is different, I think.
I played with guys who went on to be top pros but I could never imagine them doing some of the things your average second-tier player does nowadays.
I do think money has ruined the game, though. Too many players are happy to pick up obscene wages without committing as fully as a generation ago. They do train harder and are probably fitter than the chain-smoking bevvy merchants of my younger days but they couldn't tackle a fish supper. Far too many of them are cheating wusses.
The game is definitely different. Is it better or worse? I really don't know.
I played with guys who went on to be top pros but I could never imagine them doing some of the things your average second-tier player does nowadays.
I do think money has ruined the game, though. Too many players are happy to pick up obscene wages without committing as fully as a generation ago. They do train harder and are probably fitter than the chain-smoking bevvy merchants of my younger days but they couldn't tackle a fish supper. Far too many of them are cheating wusses.
The game is definitely different. Is it better or worse? I really don't know.
granger
Senior Jockey
An industry not a game.
A customer not a supporter.
Ruined forever.
Back to racing, it is a golden era for high class horses.
its a pity more of them aren't spaced out a bit more
A customer not a supporter.
Ruined forever.
Back to racing, it is a golden era for high class horses.
its a pity more of them aren't spaced out a bit more
Marketing seems to ruin everything, including racing.
I would think the marketeers got their hands on sport anytime from the late 70s-early 80s on.
While it was more amateur then and standards across the board are now better, it does appear that there was more love of the game involved back then.
I would think the marketeers got their hands on sport anytime from the late 70s-early 80s on.
While it was more amateur then and standards across the board are now better, it does appear that there was more love of the game involved back then.
Desert Orchid
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thats bollocks. Contradictory too. Rambling old man
ignorance of football is extremely rife on this forum but to claim that all supporters are simply "customers" is Clueless. As ever the comments only apply to the premiership which is the obsession of those that only see the game from a distance
I'll bet that more people attended non league football last weekend than attended racing.
That's even before we get into the second to fourth tiers of the game
Colin Phillips
At the Start
No Easter Eggs, Clive?
Keep Calm and.....
Keep Calm and.....
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Well yeah, but how many games were there, 200 plus?
Your remark about Desert Orchid was extremely ignorant and typical of your bullying attitude.Your wife must be wrecking your head again.
EC1
On a break
if i find out he's got a wife there will be no more bum fun thats for sure
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
:blink: shut that door :lol:
EC1
On a break
i remember you went ballistic when you thought someone was calling your mum a liar about the ghost thing..remember that?..best keep Mums out of jokes Clive imo...seeing as you a tad touchy about your own.
anyway...whats this about a wife?.you never told me about this when we in bed..two timer
