Road to the Champion Chase 2011

Master Minded was almost all out the other day,the time was not special, he was not going away of Petit Robin and for me run 10 pounds worse than at Ascot.

if the ground is soft and goes straight he has a good chance in the CC but my feeling is that he is not near the horse he was in the past.
 
Does no one think that Big Zeb is not entitled to improve further from last year? Talk of a one horse QM at this stage is futile really. I for one was very impressed with his debut at Navan
 
granger said:
Does no one think that Big Zeb is not entitled to improve further from last year? Talk of a one horse QM at this stage is futile really. I for one was very impressed with his debut at Navan
Click to expand...

I agree with you :whistle:

I think they are fairly happy MM is doing his thing so they don't have to worry about it.
 
EC1 said:
I'm not so sure about that Grass - how many more lengths could he have won do you think?...add in that WF is probably still on the upgrade..and come March it could be a closer run thing than it looks now.

WF is a strong contender imo.
Click to expand...

He made the ground up effortlessly imo, EC, and was no more than shaken up on the run in. He had several lengths in hand, I reckon, and the horse I saw was assuredly not all-out (as Suny suggests) at the finish.

WF very admirable indeed, and still heading the right way, but he still has plenty to find with MM as far as I'm concered. He does appeal as a place option though, as he remains less exposed than those 'ordinary' contenders I mentioned previously.
 
I remember backing MM at something like 27/1 for the Queen Mum his first year. There were very few viable alternatives.

Woolcombe Folly reminds me a bit of MM that year, except the top 2 are very different oppositions to Twist Magic and Voy por Ustedes.
 
Bar the Bull said:
You were the one who said that he wouldn't get within 10l of Master Minded.

Listen, I agree with you on Arsenal a lot of the time and I am on MM with you this time. But some of your language leaves you hanging for low blows.

If you would like me to stop teasing you, I will.
Click to expand...

I was only kidding with the low blow comment - your teasing adds to the fun, no need to stop at all.

No point sitting on the fence when you have an opinion - I am pretty sure you will be banking that money if Master Minded turns up fit and well come March. You could add a couple of each way savers - French Opera and Captain Cee Bee would be my choices, the latter a more likely winner for me than Big Zeb (I think he will start shorter on the day of the QM myself). French Opera I am a huge fan of, and he has less than 10 pounds to make up on BZ for me - and shows every chance he can do this, and at least make the frame at a big price. He is a very good horse, and his comfortable win against Tchico Polos looks quite good now, and on a line through that one's form with Somersby, reads even better again. 25/1+ is an insult to a very very good horse.
 
Last edited:
He was pointing out that even though WF went faster early than MM..he also finished off faster. He didn't make a clear conclusion that WF was superioir using the splits but he said that the two horses are closer than people think and that at 4 times the price WF is a real value bet

i think just the overall times for both races are important..as i said last night..we knew they didn't dawdle in the big race so WF's overall time looked impressive. After reading the sectional analysis..more so.

He is a real contender...and he has improvement to come ...whearas MM is the complete article.

I know many don't value times..even more so over the sticks but as I have said many times before..the comparison of two races on the same day over same trip can tell you stuff other people miss.
 
Last edited:
Grasshopper said:
He made the ground up effortlessly imo, EC, and was no more than shaken up on the run in. He had several lengths in hand, I reckon, and the horse I saw was assuredly not all-out (as Suny suggests) at the finish.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I'm not suggesting he's at his 2008 Festival level but he's certainly the one to beat come March.

You're talking a lot of sense these days by the way. Are you finally ready to admit Harchibald should have won a Champion? :p
 
Last edited:
trackside528 said:
Agreed. I'm not suggesting he's at his 2008 Festival level but he's certainly the one to beat come March.

You're talking a lot of sense these days by the way. Are you finally ready to admit Harchibald should have won a Champion? :p
Click to expand...

but he should have made the ground up effortlessly..he used less energy early on than WC.

this is what is deceiving when viewing a race just by eye..yes he did make up easy ground..but his energy level saved early allowed this

its all about expected finish and actual..MM has just conformed to what would be expected..in fact using WC early as comparison..he should have done it even easier later.

if MM had gone harder early..and then still made effortless ground late..then i would agree with your comment.
 
EC1 said:
but he should have made the ground up effortlessly..he used less energy early on than WC.

this is what is deceiving when viewing a race just by eye..yes he did make up easy ground..but his energy level saved early allowed this

its all about expected finish and actual..MM has just conformed to what would be expected..in fact using WC early as comparison..he should have done it even easier later.

if MM had gone harder early..and then still made effortless ground late..then i would agree with your comment.
Click to expand...

But if Master Minded had gone off harder, surely those in front of him would have gone off harder still and have been coming back to him more quickly? Surely it is harder to make ground (effortlessly or otherwise) from off the pace in a race run at a moderate/slow gallop than it is in a race run at a true/overly strong pace. How much energy Woolcombe Folly or Master Minded expended in the early part of the race is thus surely relative to that used by the other horses in the same race.

Anyway the times that I got from three out to the line (Woolcombe Folly 56.3/Master Minded 57.0) suggest that both horses came home in a pretty similar time which suggests both races were run at a strong, though not overly strong, gallop.
 
trackside528 said:
But if Master Minded had gone off harder, surely those in front of him would have gone off harder still and have been coming back to him more quickly? Surely it is harder to make ground (effortlessly or otherwise) from off the pace in a race run at a moderate/slow gallop than it is in a race run at a true/overly strong pace. How much energy Woolcombe Folly or Master Minded expended in the early part of the race is thus surely relative to that used by the other horses in the same race.

Anyway the times that I got from three out to the line (Woolcombe Folly 56.3/Master Minded 57.0) suggest that both horses came home in a pretty similar time which suggests both races were run at a strong, though not overly strong, gallop.
Click to expand...

WF had faster early fractions though Track..according to JW..thats why those closing sectionals give much credit to WF
 
On The Bridle said:
What price Big Zeb now! Impressive and still quite a bit to work on I'd say!!
Click to expand...

He looked brilliant in the ring today. Was pulling the two lads' hands off. He idled in front but his jumping is so assured now he really reminds me of Moscow Flyer. Neither could win a bumper, both had similar jumping profiles over fences and both end up being decent jumpers. It's a long time since Zeb fell and I'm happy to stick with him at Cheltenham.
 
Have to agree with regards his jumping. Looks very assured these days and wouldn't be an issue nowadays. Likeable horse.
 
Like I have said before in this thread, discount BZ at your peril. I am on MM ante-post in a big enough way, but BZ is these days a rock solid proposition.

Any chink in Master Minded's armour, and Big Zeb will nail him. 2/1 and 4/1 are about right for the two of them.
 
Totally. Anyone who is on MM at nice prices just needs to back Zeb on the day for a virtually certain winner. And those are hard to come by at the Festival as we all know.
 
Back
Top