Road to the Champion Hurdle 2023

My greater concern for CH, in terms of stats, is that no horse since 1971 (Bula) has done the Supreme-CH double. I know the modern trend has been to send the Supreme winner over fences, but there would have been many that tried to win the CH the next year. So much to look forward to!
 
My greater concern for CH, in terms of stats, is that no horse since 1971 (Bula) has done the Supreme-CH double. I know the modern trend has been to send the Supreme winner over fences, but there would have been many that tried to win the CH the next year. So much to look forward to!

As stats go, Len, this one doesn't concern me one little bit.
 
Shishkin, yes. But not Altior, DO. Good point.

I’d also add Vautour and Douvan. Golden Cygnet too, in the golden era of hurdling.
 
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Shishkin, yes. But not Altior, DO.


Hmm...

Altior got RPR 166 for winning the Supreme, with Buveur D'Air well beaten. The following year BDA got RPR 167 for winning the Champion Hurdle.


Shishkin got 'only' 159 for winning the Supreme (I went some way higher than that BEFORE the race).

Only a fall would have stopped Altior.
(Imvho)
 
Hmm...

Altior got RPR 166 for winning the Supreme, with Buveur D'Air well beaten. The following year BDA got RPR 167 for winning the Champion Hurdle.



Shishkin got 'only' 159 for winning the Supreme (I went some way higher than that BEFORE the race).

Only a fall would have stopped Altior.
(Imvho)

Sorry, DO, I meant in response to the question “Does anyone doubt…”. No doubt with Altior, but yes to a doubt with Shishkin.
 
Cheers, Len.

Personally I have no doubt Shishkin would have won a CH but we'll never know. Hendo did say Shishkin would have won it easily but wanted him to go chasing, presumably knowing Altior wouldn't be at the very top for ever and, in any case, he had BDA and Epatante proving themselves up to winning CHs anyway.
 
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I think what Len asked, and the reply that if certain horses hadn't gone chasing is very interesting. One or some of you guys can probably answer this, I don't watch closely enough. At what point did trainers stop being that bothered about a horse staying on the hurdling road? My memories of top hurdling types seems clear. When I first started following racing was in that "golden" period in the 70s. Yet in the 80s we lost those warriors of the hurdling game, I don't think it was because it was lacking in talent, but maybe the change to switching to the larger obstacles removed the hurdle attraction. Did prize money change making it so that chasing was the game to aim at? As much as I loved Istabraq, in my mind I feel that he was kept to hurdling, he was really good at it, but the opposition wasn't what those 70s stars faced, due to this "chasing" attraction. Why did Istabraq not go chasing? if he had, you would then have another void of hurdling greatness.
 
I wonder about this myself.

Could it be because the likes of Istabraq (and Hurricane Fly for that matter) were Flat-bred and maybe not robust enough in the bone to go chasing?

I do think there is more money, glamour and longevity in going chasing but then again, some horses just don't really take to fences, eg Big Buck's.
 
I think what Len asked, and the reply that if certain horses hadn't gone chasing is very interesting. One or some of you guys can probably answer this, I don't watch closely enough. At what point did trainers stop being that bothered about a horse staying on the hurdling road? My memories of top hurdling types seems clear. When I first started following racing was in that "golden" period in the 70s. Yet in the 80s we lost those warriors of the hurdling game, I don't think it was because it was lacking in talent, but maybe the change to switching to the larger obstacles removed the hurdle attraction. Did prize money change making it so that chasing was the game to aim at? As much as I loved Istabraq, in my mind I feel that he was kept to hurdling, he was really good at it, but the opposition wasn't what those 70s stars faced, due to this "chasing" attraction. Why did Istabraq not go chasing? if he had, you would then have another void of hurdling greatness.

Most National Hunt horses are bred to go chasing, and it's a logical path for them to go down.

As DO says, the one's which stick to hurdles have generally come off the Flat, or have failed as chasers. There are obviously exceptions, but I think trainers and owners generally think that hurdling is merely a stepping-stone to going over fences.
 
Most National Hunt horses are bred to go chasing, and it's a logical path for them to go down.

As DO says, the one's which stick to hurdles have generally come off the Flat, or have failed as chasers. There are obviously exceptions, but I think trainers and owners generally think that hurdling is merely a stepping-stone to going over fences.

I get that completely, hurdling being a stepping stone. But was it just a coincidence that in the 60s and 70s that many horses stayed hurdling then? I would have thought at that time there would have been less ex flat horses that didn't want to jump fences so you would expect horses like Persian War, I love that horse by the way, and all the other greats of that time would go over the big jumps after hurdling. They didn't though, they stayed hurdling, and many of them would have looked like hurdling was a stepping stone too. I remember at that time in the 70s, there was like a divide, you had great hurdlers, great chasers, you would never see many really good hurdlers even tried over fences. Yes there were exceptions to that, and sometimes it ended in tragedy. I wonder if the tragedy aspect put trainers off sending good hurdlers chasing?

I don't know what changed but from the mid 80s things changed, not completely obviously, you still had hurdlers that never attempted chasing, but the pool of horses staying hurdling seemed to get smaller. I followed Night Nurse closely, he was one of those really exceptional hurdlers that had a great chasing career too, I often wonder why he was switched to chasing when he was such a great hurdler. He could have had another 3 years having a poke at Sea Pigeon, Monksfield etc over hurdles, but they went the chasing route with him. Yet such as Sea Pigeon and Monksfield were never tried at the big jumps. I find this hurdling/chasing decision with a horse really interesting. Why did Istabraq never go chasing for instance? Why did your great love Hurricaine Fly never go chasing? I would love to know how a trainer makes that decision..keep hurdling..or go chasing.
 
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I get that completely, hurdling being a stepping stone. But was it just a coincidence that in the 60s and 70s that many horses stayed hurdling then? I would have thought at that time there would have been less ex flat horses that didn't want to jump fences so you would expect horses like Persian War, I love that horse by the way, and all the other greats of that time would go over the big jumps after hurdling. They didn't though, they stayed hurdling, and many of them would have looked like hurdling was a stepping stone too. I remember at that time in the 70s, there was like a divide, you had great hurdlers, great chasers, you would never see many really good hurdlers even tried over fences. Yes there were exceptions to that, and sometimes it ended in tragedy. I wonder if the tragedy aspect put trainers off sending good hurdlers chasing?

I don't know what changed but from the mid 80s things changed, not completely obviously, you still had hurdlers that never attempted chasing, but the pool of horses staying hurdling seemed to get smaller. I followed Night Nurse closely, he was one of those really exceptional hurdlers that had a great chasing career too, I often wonder why he was switched to chasing when he was such a great hurdler. He could have had another 3 years having a poke at Sea Pigeon, Monksfield etc over hurdles, but they went the chasing route with him. Yet such as Sea Pigeon and Monksfield were never tried at the big jumps. I find this hurdling/chasing decision with a horse really interesting. Why did Istabraq never go chasing for instance? Why did your great love Hurricaine Fly never go chasing? I would love to know how a trainer makes that decision..keep hurdling..or go chasing.

It’s a good point about the tragedy of hurdlers perishing in their chase careers. Lanzarote and Dawn Run spring to mind; I’m sure there are others. Ted Walsh has always said that some horses are not brave enough to jump a fence, and I wonder if other trainers have discovered this, without necessarily making that discovery public about their star hurdlers
 
Dawn Run died in the French Champion Hurdle, rather than over fences.

Night Nurse - the best of the lot by most accounts - was sent chasing, and Peter Easterby said he should have gone over fences with him a year or two earlier.

Bottom line is that the horse will usually tell you if he is ready for fences, and that's likely what drives most trainer's decisions. Some great hurdlers just aren't built for it (Hurricane Fly, for example).
 
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Fences are also a lot softer these days and there is good prizemoney to be won in small field novice chases.
 
I get that completely, hurdling being a stepping stone. But was it just a coincidence that in the 60s and 70s that many horses stayed hurdling then? I would have thought at that time there would have been less ex flat horses that didn't want to jump fences so you would expect horses like Persian War, I love that horse by the way, and all the other greats of that time would go over the big jumps after hurdling. They didn't though, they stayed hurdling, and many of them would have looked like hurdling was a stepping stone too. I remember at that time in the 70s, there was like a divide, you had great hurdlers, great chasers, you would never see many really good hurdlers even tried over fences. Yes there were exceptions to that, and sometimes it ended in tragedy. I wonder if the tragedy aspect put trainers off sending good hurdlers chasing?

I don't know what changed but from the mid 80s things changed, not completely obviously, you still had hurdlers that never attempted chasing, but the pool of horses staying hurdling seemed to get smaller. I followed Night Nurse closely, he was one of those really exceptional hurdlers that had a great chasing career too, I often wonder why he was switched to chasing when he was such a great hurdler. He could have had another 3 years having a poke at Sea Pigeon, Monksfield etc over hurdles, but they went the chasing route with him. Yet such as Sea Pigeon and Monksfield were never tried at the big jumps. I find this hurdling/chasing decision with a horse really interesting. Why did Istabraq never go chasing for instance? Why did your great love Hurricaine Fly never go chasing? I would love to know how a trainer makes that decision..keep hurdling..or go chasing.

I do think prize money is a major factor. I do think chase money outstripped hurdles money from about the '80s on but will gladly stand corrected if I'm wrong about it.

Did it happen - assuming it did happen - due to sponsorship and sponsors preferring the spectacle of a chase rather than hurdles? I don't know.
 
Poor entry for Sunday

(2:30) 363F Bar One Racing Hatton's Grace H'dle(Grade 1) €70,800.00 ( 2m 3f 130y - 4yo+ ) [MAX 25]

1 Ashdale Bob(152) (MrsJHarrington) 11,108316
2 Commander Of Fleet(156)(GElliott) ..................... 11,102111
3 Darver Star(149) (GCromwell) ......... 11,104512
4 Klassical Dream (FR)(163)(WPMullins)................ 11,105P-63
5 Saldier (FR)(160) (WPMullins) ......... 11,100145
6 Sire Du Berlais (FR)(154) (GElliott) . 11,101-106
7 Teahupoo (FR)(158) (GElliott).......... 11,104-352
8 Echoes In Rain (FR)(150)(WPMullins)................ 11,031-111
9 Honeysuckle (GB)(165)(HdeBromhead) ......... 11,03
 
I have no interest in settling scores with Tanlic, in fact if you read my first posts I bantered with him, all he had to do was stop the usual abuse I got from him years ago, the sly hidden digs he thinks folk don't pick up on. Sadly he just had to continue. I'm not bothered now I know it will be same old dig dig dig done in that subtle or not so subtle way he has about him. I don't block people now, I block forums, I don't need it now just not interested in hassle, don't need it at all, and the forum will tick along just as it always does. All the best Marb.

I'm with you mate I have nothing against you and in fact rate your posts better than many. If we disagree we disagree but it has never been personal with me.
 
Getting back to the Champion Hurdle I just read Constitution Hill clocked the fastest time recorded in a Fighting Fifth by 5 seconds....That's 20 lengths.

I wonder where his speed comes from. With Arkle it was easy explained. He inherited his speed from his grandfather, the unbeaten Nearco.

He was bred like a modern day Sprinter Sacre racing against horses bred to to stay 4 miles lets alone 3. That gave him a huge advatage

Constitution Hill's dam and sire were close on useless so where he got his engine from is a mystery.

The question being asked is will he go chasing.

That depends on what Nicky has coming up through the ranks.
He will as always look at it from a buisness point of view and at the same time sunm up what suits each horse best.

He sent Shiskin chacing to go for the Arkle 73k because it was felt he wasn't good enough nor did he have the speed to win a Champion Hurdle 245K

Plus he had Epatante waiting in the wings and both duly won their races.

You can bet if he doesn't have a substitute good enough to win the 2024 Champion Hurdle then Constituion Hill will stay put and the best novice hurdle he has at the time will be sent chasing.

Sprinter Scare went for the Arkle because Binocular was their Champion Hurdle horse at the time.

It doesn't matter to Nicky which race they go for at this stage what matter is he gives his yard the best chance of winning top dollar.

So I reckon we just have to wait and see if there's a young pretender good enough to be winning/running in the Champion Hurdle

If later on he does come up with one in the future I would bet he will send Constitution Hill straight for the QMCC
 
It just keeps getting better. Barry Geraghty just said in a video. That clocked at the 4f pole and 2 furlong pole he was only 0.08sec slower than Flightline in the breeders:blink:
 
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