Road to the Epsom Derby 2011

Hamm said:
Am I the only one who sees this Derby as a potentially very very high class renewal? Very much looking forward to it.
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If they all ran to the best they could be you could be right. Personally I'd be disappointed if the favourite is good enough to win. But the Derby is rarely if ever poor. I'm thinking it will be somewhere in between unless something surprises.

Something will inevitably prove good enough to win and will no doubt be a good horse, whichever one that might be.
 
Aragorn said:
EC, you are carrying on a bit mate.. And basically cussing people who have just as much right to an opinion as you.

I hope you come on here and take the stick with dignity if CH wins.
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sorry for going on..but i'm a little tired of how much Hammster gets away with on here..he's lost this board a number of good posters through his obnoxious ways..its time folk started passing comment on him..rather than against me responding to his bolloxy nonsense.

he's on my ignore ist when i'm logged in..i pray to that he puts me on his

yes..back to the race..

i also hope.. if he doesn't win ..i don't hear any bolloxy excuses

i don't mind what stick i get..as long as it doesn't include starting arsehole threads meant to demean..rather than banter

i don't fancy the horse at all..in fact i'll give my selection now..RECITAL
 
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Interesting to see how this turns out. Trouble does seem to follow him around.

Carlton House apparently worked with Ryan Moore today and they left the decleration right until the last minute - still not entirely certain to line up on Saturday.
 
SteveM said:
The Sporting Life site has been known to get this sort of thing wrong. I noted the other day for example that it had Pour Moi's trainer as Aidan O'Brien. However with MT specifically in third colours they may have it right.

Nevertheless, I'd be surprised to see Recital in anything other than the first silks, although my own preference is for Pour Moi.
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Info we have been given which comes straight from Weatherbys is that Pour Moi wears dark blue and Recital wears pink.
 
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Agree - unless they have a contract with him it doesn't matter a jot what he told them! Lets hope they get what they deserve out of this as regards the performance of their horse on Saturday - racing would become a national joke if everytime something like this happened the courts had to mediate.
 
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I know probably the wrong place but just been watching Derby memories on Racing UK how the bloody hell did New Approach win that year? Pulled all the way to Tattenham Corner, then got mullered, then caught in traffic and still then won comfortably. He must have been some horse.
 
Kauto said:
I know probably the wrong place but just been watching Derby memories on Racing UK how the bloody hell did New Approach win that year? Pulled all the way to Tattenham Corner, then got mullered, then caught in traffic and still then won comfortably. He must have been some horse.
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A horse who was rarely given the chance as a 3yo to show how good he was - he could have been a superstar if Bolger hadn't gotten it into his head to try and hold him up.
 
Incredible shame. For all that Zarkava probably had more in the tank, New Approach would surely have beaten Youmzain by more than 2 lengths so we'll never know.
 
Hamm said:
Incredible shame. For all that Zarkava probably had more in the tank, New Approach would surely have beaten Youmzain by more than 2 lengths so we'll never know.
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I was in love with Zarkava but having watched that replay I'm convinced he would have won the Arc. It was just an amazing performance to still be pulling at Tattenham the energy he must have expanded phenemonal
 
chroniclandlord said:
This seems petty and vindictive by the owners of Native Khan.
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Interesting, a Lumley-v- Wagner injunction in horse racing !

The law will not enforce a contract for personal service by way of injunction i.e the court would not order Fallon to ride NK but it can be used to prevent such a personal service being rendered to other persons e.g you enter into a contract to sing at X's theatre for a month and then break it to sing at Y's instead .

However, this is usually only where the contract that provides for the positive obligation e.g to sing at X's theatre also provides that you are not to sing for anyone else during that period .

It seems very unlikely that any contract to ride NK would include a promise not to ride anyone else's horse but if it did Fallon could be in trouble - they may be trying to argue that as it is impossible to ride two horses in one race such a term is implied but the courts have generally insisted on an express negative stipulation - without knowing the terms of the contract it is difficult to express a view but even if written I suspect the court would be disinclined to grant an injunction .

Fallon apparently alleged it was an innocent misunderstanding - it seems unlikely there is a written contract if that is the case . If the contract was oral I expect Fallon will be OK on the basis that there was no express negative term.
 
Kauto said:
I was in love with Zarkava but having watched that replay I'm convinced he would have won the Arc. It was just an amazing performance to still be pulling at Tattenham the energy he must have expanded phenemonal
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I remember completely writing him off mentally when I saw him pulling like that. Took my eyes off him and suddenly he's winning the thing. Bizarre.
 
They seem to be suggesting that Fallon, having ridden Native Khan, has a "competitive advantage" riding against him. I can't see it myself.
 
New Approach won a poor Derby in a slow time. If he'd run against Workforce last year and pulled like that he would never have won.

Good horse but a lunatic and was fortunate to come up against a weak field - The placed horses did nothing for the form.
 
Aragorn said:
New Approach won a poor Derby in a slow time. If he'd run against Workforce last year and pulled like that he would never have won.

Good horse but a lunatic and was fortunate to come up against a weak field - The placed horses did nothing for the form.
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Not the case.

The second was placed in his 3 subsequent races at Group 1 level and won his sole other start, a Group 3.

The third subsequently won a Group 2 and a Group 1.

The 4th subsequently won 2 Group 3 and a Group 2.

The 7th won 2 Group 1s (albeit in Italy) last year.

The 11th subsequently won the Irish Derby.

Not the best Derby of all time, but far, far from the worst. And the fact that he won despite pulling hard and found all manner of trouble is to his credit.

Time - should he really be marked down because the horses ahead of him went so slowly? Analysing races with time can be good, (and I don't mean you with this) but people need to know when to use race times, and when to discard them, in terms of analysing the worth of a race. This is something most people who use race times don't do, unfortunately.
 
Indeed. Sea The Stars also won his Derby in a slowish time. Horses can only win the race that unfolds in front of them. Workforce is hugely talented, but he likely wouldn't have recorded such a fast time last year without At First Sight to aim at.
 
I would agree with Hamm that it wasn't the worst Derby.

Authorized beat far worse horses (apart from Soldier of Fortune who didn't run to his best at Epsom).
Sir Percy's Derby was worse.
The only decent horses is Motivator's Derby (Oratorio and Dubawi) didn't stay.
And were the horse that North Light (Rule of Law and Let the Lion Roar) any better than Casual Conquest and Tartan Bearer?

There is this myth that the Derby is always fantastic, but in reality it went through a very poor spell (relatively speaking) between 2003 and 2007.

It is not every year we get High Chap vs Hawk Wing or Sea the Stars vs RVW and F&G.

New Approach beat an average Derby field in the context of the last decade.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Indeed. Sea The Stars also won his Derby in a slowish time. Horses can only win the race that unfolds in front of them. Workforce is hugely talented, but he likely wouldn't have recorded such a fast time last year without At First Sight to aim at.
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Isn't that the issue we seem (or some of us anyway, myself included) to have with the Dante. The time was poor as they walked early. It's the sectionals for the last three furlongs where only 0.5 of a second was made up on the fillies race which was run must faster earlier in its respective race, which really asks the question was it simply a poor trial. That and the fact that Gearoid is absolutely steadfast in his contention that Seville is useless, is behind my lack of belief in Carlton House. 9/4 could look huge tomorrow afternoon on the otherhand.
 
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No, I don't think so, OTB - the problem with people who use sectionals militantly is that they have their eyes on an excel spreadsheet rather than watching the race. The time, and sectionals can't be disputed. They can, however, be put in context - Carlton House was travelling much the best horse, but in those last few furlongs had little chance to run as fast as he could because he was stuck behind the Morrison horse and Seville - when the gap opened he took it as well as a top horse could hope to take it, and shot through. There was no chance for him to run the last 3 furlongs any quicker because of the way the race ran for him with the traffic problems.

Again, I don't think he should be marked down in any way for this, but what it does leave open is would he be as good in a truly run race? That can't be answered but there is at least every indication he could be better.

Sectionals, as with speed ratings, should only be used when they say something useful - for Carlton House, because of the above, I think they are best discarded.
 
Hamm said:
Not the case.

The second was placed in his 3 subsequent races at Group 1 level and won his sole other start, a Group 3.

The third subsequently won a Group 2 and a Group 1.

The 4th subsequently won 2 Group 3 and a Group 2.

The 7th won 2 Group 1s (albeit in Italy) last year.

The 11th subsequently won the Irish Derby.

Not the best Derby of all time, but far, far from the worst. And the fact that he won despite pulling hard and found all manner of trouble is to his credit.

Time - should he really be marked down because the horses ahead of him went so slowly? Analysing races with time can be good, (and I don't mean you with this) but people need to know when to use race times, and when to discard them, in terms of analysing the worth of a race. This is something most people who use race times don't do, unfortunately.
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In my opinion Tartan Bearer was a group 2 horse at best, as was Casual Conquest who won a crap Tattersalls Gold Cup. The rest were pretty garbage as well - Washigton Irving was fifth?!!! Rio De La Plata was never going to stay... And is not a Group 1 animal in the UK.

New Approach tried the same antics against a decent field next time out and humped. He then won two more crap Group 1's - Twice Over was the only decent horse he beat in those two races - The Champion stakes was a good performance though.

Time - The point quite clearly is that if the race had been run faster he would have struggled. As it was it was slowly run and he could pull for his head the whole way and still get home. He was second in two guineas so that was always going to play to his strengths.

Anyway, the point I took issue with was that New Approach could have won the Arc and i was trying to show that he won one, fairly average G1 12f race. Whatever you say against Youmzain he has run many very good horses close and New Approach probably would have beaten him but I don't think he would have won the Arc.
 
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