Its different to the Flat though (which is a series of peaks). The NH is all about the middle of March and always has been really.
Road to the Gold Cup 2011
- Thread starter Euronymous
- Start date
Its different to the Flat though (which is a series of peaks). The NH is all about the middle of March and always has been really.
Maybe there is a lack of suitable races for top class horses, and the fact that, when they are trained by the same person, they don't want them to compete against each other except at the highest level. And I often hear people talk about horse many miles a horse has on the clock. These are quite exceptional times, in that one trainer has two of the best horses to compete over Gold Cup distances that we've had for many a year.
I suppose they were taking the view that it is better for connections to put their eggs in one basket and go for the big one, rather than providing an entertaining series of days out for joe public.
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EC1
On a break
Steve
Do you not think that Denman has lost that extra acceleration he had?
What set him apart was that burst 4 or 5 fences out when he left others for dead..he doesn't have that burst now and just plods on at the same pace
whilst you could argue his performance in the henessey was worthy..he was still beaten a good way
a horse like Denman should be able to carry weight so i would have expected the Denman of old to win or go close in the hennessey
i think he has lost that bit extra he once had
Do you not think that Denman has lost that extra acceleration he had?
What set him apart was that burst 4 or 5 fences out when he left others for dead..he doesn't have that burst now and just plods on at the same pace
whilst you could argue his performance in the henessey was worthy..he was still beaten a good way
a horse like Denman should be able to carry weight so i would have expected the Denman of old to win or go close in the hennessey
i think he has lost that bit extra he once had
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
He looked laboured in comparison to Diamond Harry maybe but who wouldn't have given the weight concession. The telling part of the Hennessy was the fourth last where Denman totally outjumped the winner. But whereas in the past that would have broken a lesser chaser's spirit Diamond Harry immediately went back on the bridle again.
You just need to compare the quality of some of the animals who were carrying 10st in Denman's three Hennessy attempts. Such a vast difference in ability.
Too much is being made of the weight carrying, that is irrelevent. It's the concession that's important. Kauto Star has carried 11st10 round Kempton four times. How many 150+ animals would have beaten him carrying 10st+ if the King George was a handicap?
You just need to compare the quality of some of the animals who were carrying 10st in Denman's three Hennessy attempts. Such a vast difference in ability.
Too much is being made of the weight carrying, that is irrelevent. It's the concession that's important. Kauto Star has carried 11st10 round Kempton four times. How many 150+ animals would have beaten him carrying 10st+ if the King George was a handicap?
With respect , that is utter nonsense. The horse was evidently much more fragile than was let on at the time . Also consider how bonkers his full brothers Cornish Rebel and Inca Trail were - the programme may well have kept BM mentally sound
So is it now weakness on Nicholls, NTD or Williams part? No more a recognition that to keep chasers at their peak in the top staying events a less strenuous programme is needed . I think it is no coincidence that after Best Mate we have had top chasers that have run less and maintained their form in the top races .
I'm sure that Ms Knight always said at the time that the horse couldn't take much racing, and he was never the same after that trip to Ireland, which was probably the only mistake that the trainer made during his career. I remember thinking to myself on the day that he died [and what a strange, surreal day that was, especially with a certain Kauro Star being in the same race] that we'd all ignored her warnings about the horse. I'd been critical, along with most other people, at only seeing him run a few times each season, and I felt somewhat ashamed of myself that day. Probably one of the most beautiful horses to grace a racetrack; I saw him and Sir Rembrandt leave the paddock one Gold Cup day, and they both took my breath away.
Bar the Bull
At the Start
Good point. First decent one you've ever made regarding Best Mate, mind you.
Best Mate ran 5 times as a bumper/novice hurdler on his first season on the track - 4 times as a novice chaser - 4 times in his first Gold Cup - then after that he was treated like a weak or unsound horse. The truth is that only started when he won his first Gold Cup - it was the trainer that could not take the extra runs not the horse.
Your comments regarding Cornish Rebel and Inca Trail - Zaidpour is a close relation to Zaynar - should we expect Mullins to wrap him in cotton wool simply because there may be a chance he might regress like his brother? Of course not - judge each horse on their merits.
I did not give my view on Nicholls or Williams on this thread - I have done regarding NTD where I clearly state he is doing the right thing by lightly racing the horse (he had planned on running in the King George) as he has proved in the past that he does not race well when kept busy. No maybes, buts, ifs - absolutely confirmed. Even then the trainer had the balls to run the horse at Aintree knowing he had a full summer off straight away after that.
As for Williams and Diamond Harry I think it is absolutely ridiculous that the horse is not running before the Gold Cup - yes the horse appears to go well fresh but again 4-5 months of a break? Come on! They are racehorses bred to race. Of course it is the owner/trainers call - but as a racing fan I would not want it encouraged in anyway shape or form.
Prior to Best Mate winning three Gold Cups it was almost unheard of for a horse to win it for a second time, let alone three. Maybe the problem is the way that Cheltenham totally dominates the whole NH season, and it has become the raison d'etre for most owners and trainers?
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
I don't see that as a problem. The Fellow ran well in a number of Gold Cup's and Dessie would have had three or four if he'd appreciated the track. I think improved training methods means top class animals are retaining their form for longer nowadays.
Somersby ran a cracking trial for the race yesterday. He travelled beautifully and stayed on really well.
Somersby ran a cracking trial for the race yesterday. He travelled beautifully and stayed on really well.
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Katharine
At the Start
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What a horse. Very tough and durable. He used to get restless if he didn't run regularly.
70 races, in roughly eight years.
Was he a rarity? I'm wondering what the average number of career runs is for top class horses.
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M
martin
Guest
I've changed my mind and starting to think Euro has a point with Punchestowns. Burton Port, Long Run, Little Josh have all franked the RSA form way or another. Diamond Harry was pulled up and he's obviously come back fine. Very interesting what Henderson and co decide to do.
20/1 for the GC might look massive if they go chasing with him again.
20/1 for the GC might look massive if they go chasing with him again.
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Euronymous
Senior Jockey
I'm worried that he hasn't had a run yet.
G-G
Senior Jockey
Totally agree.
This is a very surprising thread.
What woudl be great is if everyone who thinks these horses should be campaigned more aggressively plans out an optimal season for a grade 1 staying chaser and then look at the money available for each race.
I know if Denman and Kauto were mine I would only be competing in the biggest races and for the biggest prizes.
How many Grade 1 chases can they feasibly run in each year? There are only really 3 races - November (Betfair or JN Wine), December (King George/Lexus), March (Gold Cup/Guiness Gold Cup).
I'd say Punchestown after Cheltenham is the only one you have a feasible chance of running in.
The fact that Nicholls, Twiston Davies and Williams are right at the top of the tree at the moment should tell you something about their approach i.e. It works.
I don't think anyone can really accuse Nicholls of being shy.
What woudl be great is if everyone who thinks these horses should be campaigned more aggressively plans out an optimal season for a grade 1 staying chaser and then look at the money available for each race.
I know if Denman and Kauto were mine I would only be competing in the biggest races and for the biggest prizes.
How many Grade 1 chases can they feasibly run in each year? There are only really 3 races - November (Betfair or JN Wine), December (King George/Lexus), March (Gold Cup/Guiness Gold Cup).
I'd say Punchestown after Cheltenham is the only one you have a feasible chance of running in.
The fact that Nicholls, Twiston Davies and Williams are right at the top of the tree at the moment should tell you something about their approach i.e. It works.
I don't think anyone can really accuse Nicholls of being shy.
Miss Nero
At the Start
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- Nov 22, 2008
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He was taken out of the Long Walk.
I'm looking forward to seeing him again as well.
On another note, Midnight Chase looks as though he won't run again before having a crack at the GC. I'm surprised, as I thought the Cotswold Chase would have been a prize worth going for and very possibly within his capability. Would have told us more about him. The Gold Cup is a big leap for him, as well as he's done. That said, I'm glad connections are giving it a go.
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I really like Punchestowns but I couldn't back him ante-post for the Gold Cup. I've definitely read somewhere that the stable have doubts about his stamina for that trip and cite his World Hurdle defeat by Big Buck's as evidence. That said, they also have Long Run to consider so it's not out of the question that Punchestowns will go for the Gold Cup but I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see him line up in the Ryanair.
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
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Henderson has certainly hinted previously that he thinks Punchestowns stamina is questionable. However, given he has been the only horse to ever get one of the best 3m hurdlers of the last 20 years off the bit, I'm a bit surprised they hold such an opinion. The way he powered home at Sandown after making the error at one of the fences down the back straight had "strong stayer" written all over it (despite the fact it was over 2m4f), and I reckon he'd have no trouble with the Gold Cup trip.
They should get a prep into him at Intermediate level, and then go for the Cotswold Chase, imo.