Sea The Stars - Retirement Announced

Sea The Stars

Code: 
[b]Race		RPR (TS)	OR	TFR (Tfig)[/b]
Guineas		124 (123)	121	128 (124)
Derby		124 (100)	124	126 (118)
Eclipse		134 (129)	133	136 (132)
International	131 (132)	~129	131 (131)
Irish Champion	137 (124)	134	140 tbc

If anyone can fill in the gaps, shout.

(I can add more columns for DO and anyone else who does their own figures)
 
Timeform has 128 (Guineas), 126 (Derby), 136 (Eclipse), 131 (International).

May be best to wait for them to firm up their provisional rating from Saturday regarding the Irish Champion.

Timefigures are 124, 118, 132, 131 respectively.
 
Timeform's Flat Editor Jamie Lynch commented: "Mastercraftsman (130) appears to have run his race in third, and there is also good reason for believing that Fame And Glory deserves a rating of 135, and to be bracketed in the same league as Sinndar (134), Galileo (134) and St Jovite (135).
 
Euro,
I'm with you, especially on your earlier point about initially over-rating the race. Reason being Mastercraftsman did not appear to me to run his race, and there is simply no way Fame and Glory is a 135 horse, especially over 10 furlongs. Timeform have got this very, very wrong, and comparing FAG with the likes of Sinndar and Galileo only highlights this. They were absolute top horses, and now Fame and Glory is being ranked above them, for getting absolutely taken apart by Sea the Stars; I don't think this is anywhere near the mark.
 
Timeform seem higher ratings than others has as been mentioned..135 for F&G is a bit daft seeing as he clearly is better over further..I agree taht MCM didn't really get home in this stiffer test than York..in fact it could be argued he didn't really get home over the flatter extended 10 at York..he was easily passed at York whereas he wasn't over the mile against Delegator

its about really staying..MCM really is suited to the mile..and although a worthy runner over 10 he loses the battling qualities at that trip imo

I think he is a few lbs shy of best at 10
 
Interesting that previously STS 'couldn't possibly' have run to the mid-130s earlier because it meant Rip VW would also need to be thereabouts yet it's OK for F&G to be there and he was beaten further...
 
2000G 125+
Derby 124+
Eclipse 135+
Juddm 135? + (time based but I'm not sure the times are that meaningful for the day)
ICS ? (Can't say for now but I'm not sure MCM ran to his very best form the other day)
 
By the way, in years to come I reckon we'll be looking back at the 2000G of 2009 and saying 'wow - what a field'.

Sea The Stars
Delegator
Gan Amhras (race probably bottomed him)
Rip Van Winkle
Mastercraftsman
etc
etc
 
Would really love to see some of the Ballydoyle three year olds (assuming STS is definitely not retired this season) to stay on as 4 year olds and compare this crop to next years.
 
Desert Orchid said:
Interesting that previously STS 'couldn't possibly' have run to the mid-130s earlier because it meant Rip VW would also need to be thereabouts yet it's OK for F&G to be there and he was beaten further...
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RVW has proved he is the best of AOB's if measured against STS..he is the only one that had people thinking..just for a moment..is he going to beat him?

I think 135++ for STS is a fair assessment purely on what we can measure..we need a race where he gets pushed to see what he has left now

I think he is 140+ after watching him the other day..he just trounced them
 
Hamm said:
Euro,
I'm with you, especially on your earlier point about initially over-rating the race. Reason being Mastercraftsman did not appear to me to run his race, and there is simply no way Fame and Glory is a 135 horse, especially over 10 furlongs. Timeform have got this very, very wrong, and comparing FAG with the likes of Sinndar and Galileo only highlights this. They were absolute top horses, and now Fame and Glory is being ranked above them, for getting absolutely taken apart by Sea the Stars; I don't think this is anywhere near the mark.
Click to expand...

Considering the distance back from MCM to the rest I find it difficult to buy into the MCM did not run his race .
 
Timeform have Mastercraftsman's time performance at 10.4f superior to his two rateable efforts at 1m, which include his rallying Royal Ascot win. I mention this as I seem to recall EC places some store by time analysis.

Do people really think that rating a race should depend so much on instinctive impressions of whether a horse ran to form, as suggested in places above? As a dyed-in-the-wool empiricist I prefer to allow events to shape my views more than the opposite.
 
Galileo said:
Would really love to see some of the Ballydoyle three year olds (assuming STS is definitely not retired this season) to stay on as 4 year olds and compare this crop to next years.
Click to expand...

Quite a good point. Fame and Glory would seem the obvious one.
 
Would be fantastic to see Fame And Glory stay in training aright. A lot has been made of Sea The Stars' conformation (and rightly so), but I was equally impressed by Fame And Glory physically on Saturday - a fantastic-looking animal.

Regarding ratings, I too find 135 for Fame And Glory over 10 furlongs around Leopardstown a shade high. Looking at it from a slightly different perspective (and I'm sure the handicap buffs, of which I certainly don't count myself one, will shoot me down if I'm wrong!), but if Timeform have F&G running to 135 and STS to 141, does this not seem to suggest that they believe the official margin of victory (to within a half length) to be largely reflective Sea The Stars' superiority over Fame And Glory (using 2lb per length) on the day? If Fame And Glory was rated 131/2 over 10f I'd have no qualms giving Sea The Stars 140 myself, such was the manner of his performance.

Or is that far too simplistic?
 
Personally, I do it on a visual basis, Prufrock; the way Sea The Stars swept past Fame And Glory was majestic; I have him down as value for a length more than the bare result (at the very least). I would have him running to about 139 on Saturday.

I appreciate such subjectivity will likely not cut much mustard with a dyed-in-the-wool empiricist like yourself!
 
What was High Chapparal rated? I think its fair to say he has a very similar profile and campagin to Fame And Glory.
 
EC1 said:
do you think that the 10f MCM is as impressive as the 8f one though?

he just goes at one pace over 10f..there's nowt left
Click to expand...

More in a way. His I2000 Guineas win was in a bog against a weak field and I would quite fancy Delegator to turn the tables as he looked to blow up close home in the SJPS.

His effort at York was terrific and he was so far clear of the rest on Saturday i reckon he ran to similar form.
 
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