rorydelargy
At the Start
I'm not sure that's strictly true. It's true that the win meant more, and the fact that he appeared to be going over the top means he had to show more mettle to win it, so if that's what defines "best" then maybe so.
Sprinter Sacre: should he run at further distances?
- Thread starter Len Madeiros
- Start date
I'm not sure that's strictly true. It's true that the win meant more, and the fact that he appeared to be going over the top means he had to show more mettle to win it, so if that's what defines "best" then maybe so.
Not the point thopugh btb. He's was retired at peak of his fame and at the very point when he could have been a conduit for enticing more to follow what is in the public eye a dying or pretty dead sport. That's giving something back to the game. Not that some blinkered owners could ever see it that way
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
The suggestion that 'the public' give a toss about racing - even its greatest stars - is 100% bogus, in my view.
We exist in a bubble. No-one outside that bubble cares what happens within it. The last genuinely 'public' jumper to have raced is Desert Orchid. Notions that Best Mate and Kauto Star were ever 'public' horses are misplaced, imo....as are notions that Sprinter Sacre will become a 'public' horse.
That said, it's legitimate for those that do exist within the bubble, to want to see the very-best horses tested to their limits.
I don't think that's a particularly big ask, but connections of such animals appear to be too afraid of their charges actually losing a race - regardless of the circumstances under which they compete. That - for me at any rate - is one of the most disappointing aspects of the game. You just don't see many of the 165+ brigade (hurdles or fences) being tried in anything other than optimum conditions these days, and it's to the overall detriment of the sport.
We exist in a bubble. No-one outside that bubble cares what happens within it. The last genuinely 'public' jumper to have raced is Desert Orchid. Notions that Best Mate and Kauto Star were ever 'public' horses are misplaced, imo....as are notions that Sprinter Sacre will become a 'public' horse.
That said, it's legitimate for those that do exist within the bubble, to want to see the very-best horses tested to their limits.
I don't think that's a particularly big ask, but connections of such animals appear to be too afraid of their charges actually losing a race - regardless of the circumstances under which they compete. That - for me at any rate - is one of the most disappointing aspects of the game. You just don't see many of the 165+ brigade (hurdles or fences) being tried in anything other than optimum conditions these days, and it's to the overall detriment of the sport.
Len Madeiros
Rookie
I think it's more accurate to say "the racing public". I agree that horse racing is a minority sport these days and fewer and fewer watch it, even on the one-off Grand National occasions.
Anyway, connections have plenty of excuses but no real reasons not to race SS over a further distance.
Tanlic
Sea The Stars arc
was possibly his worst performance in his 3yo campaign
much better form in the Eclipse, Irish Champion
and Derby too
in the Guineas he was possibly not fully fit
That's not entirely how it see it grass and Len is more correct. There are people out there who have a passing interest in the sport and could be drawn in more. Many could tell you enough about kauto and best mate
25 years ago you would find at least a couple of reasonably interested followers to Some extent in any office. These days I network any number of people but when do I come across a racing follower? Can't remember the last time
25 years ago you would find at least a couple of reasonably interested followers to Some extent in any office. These days I network any number of people but when do I come across a racing follower? Can't remember the last time
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Over the top? No way! horses over the top don't win Arcs.
Take your Timeform hat off when you are speaking to me:lol:
Bar the Bull
At the Start
Why wouldn't an over-the-top horse win an Arc? Check out who was second.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Eclipse he beat Rip Van Winkle an out and out miler. He was cantering all over Sea The stars 2 furlongs out then hung like a gate when his stamina gave out
Irish Champion....He beat Fame and Glory a stayer and Mastercraftsman who didn't stay 10f
AOB spent the season trying everything he could to beat Sea the Stars with 3 horses running at the wrong trip.
Sea the Stars was overrated by Timeform going into the Arc and despite beating Fame and Glory further than he had ever done before claimed he had run below par.
He ran the best race of his life because he was up against top class horses running at their best trip for the first time in his life. He beat Youmzain the same distance as Zarkava (132) only she did it much easier than he did. So they gave him a 132 if memory selves me correctly.
I have never agreed with Timeform on Sea the Stars 140 rating and think Zarkava was different class to him.cSo you'll have to forgive me for disagreeing with you on this one.
It happens way too often horses get ratings they don't deserve just because they win a poor Group 1 easily then along comes something like Sea the Stars and he gets overrated for beating them......then handicappers have no choice but save face by saying so and so ran below form..........just a way of balancing the books
The whole idea that consistent, top class horses such as STS bounce up and down in form is plainly ridiculous.
Fwiw, the Arc was probably his lifetime best performance, much as you'd expect from a maturing horse of his ilk, at the end of his 2nd season.
edgt
Senior Jockey
Back to the question, all horses are different.
A big horse like SS is more difficult to keep sound than a tidier hardier horse.
I did not know the extent of his wind ops but that is also a factor in deciding his racing distance. A top 2 miler does not need to prove himself over any other distance.
Public gets their day out when he runs. Some horses can be run more often than more.
Desert Orchid and Kauto Star probably spoiled us by winning over such a range of trips over their careers and at the highest level. Not many horses in the history of racing were so adaptable with going and distance..
Good question Len, it got us all thinking!
A big horse like SS is more difficult to keep sound than a tidier hardier horse.
I did not know the extent of his wind ops but that is also a factor in deciding his racing distance. A top 2 miler does not need to prove himself over any other distance.
Public gets their day out when he runs. Some horses can be run more often than more.
Desert Orchid and Kauto Star probably spoiled us by winning over such a range of trips over their careers and at the highest level. Not many horses in the history of racing were so adaptable with going and distance..
Good question Len, it got us all thinking!
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Bounce up and down makes it sound worse than it is but a difference in trip will make three or four pounds difference for most horses. That wasn't a problem for STS because he had that class buffa. But his half brother lost the Irish Champion because he didn't have the luxury of running three or four pounds below his best over a trip short of his optimum.
I can't really understand this debate. Sprinter Sacre is a fantastic two mile chaser so why do anything else? This business about proving greatness by stepping up in trip is an absolute nonsense. He will prove his greatness by dominating Grade 1 two mile chases for the next few seasons.
On the same line should Hendersons be dropping Bobs Worth back to two miles next season to prove his greatness?!!!
On the same line should Hendersons be dropping Bobs Worth back to two miles next season to prove his greatness?!!!
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Why did Black Caviar go all the way to Ascot?
90% + of racing fans have now cottoned on to the fact Sprinter Sacre is something really special.
In the short space of time he's been around he's become an equine living legend and has already ousted Mill House from 3rd spot in Timeform's top rated chasers of all time.
While I agree it is a nonsense that you need to be a 3 mile horse to prove greatness people want to see their heroes prove they can just about do anything.
So they want to see him go do it and prove 2 miles 3 miles it doesn't matter he's so good he can beat anything on 4 legs.
They want him to prove he's the greatest chaser of all time because that was then this is now and it's Sprinter's time and their time.
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2005
- Messages
- 24,857
Yes. When C4 showed the reply on Saturday I called Mrs O in and said to her, "Watch this, this is what Cheltenham is all about." ('Cos she's a Cheltenham widow.) Pointing to Sizing Coffin as they ran downhill, I said "That's the champ - forgetting about Finian's for a moment - and the ones behind are right good ones. Watch what this thing in the red does to them." As SS sauntered miles clear she just went 'Wow'.
(Or was it "F&ck off". Poetic licence and all that.)
Flagship uberalles
Journeyman
I want to see him race against the best horses around. Given that Simonsig is the only obvious chance we have of seeing something get close to him at 2 miles and that Tricky Nicky may even keep them apart, I would say the best horses are running at 2 and a half or 3 miles.
beat a champion hurdle winner over 2m4f
Len Madeiros
Rookie
And, surely, if SS scares off all opposition - and has already done that at the age of 7 - connections might try a different challenge for the great horse.
C'mon - we don't want to see the horse injured: we just want to see him at his utmost. One attempt beyond two miles is all we ask.
beat a champion hurdle winner over 2m4f
When was that ? I thought Bob's Worth won the Albert Bartlett and First Lieutenant beat Rock on Ruby .
