Sussex Stakes

Goodwood is about as fast and easy a mile trip as you can get.

He hits a flat spot in comparison to Henrythenavigator who's accleration is immeadiate. I have looked at the race again, Murtagh's hand was forced to kick on at the two furlong marker. A horse with his turn of foot is surely best suited to a last furlong assault. The fact he still won today speaks volumes for him.
 
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Isinglass said:
Agree.
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I disagree, but not in an argumentative way ~ neither HTN nor RP were inconvenienced by the way today's race was run and the best conclusion we can make is that there isn't much between them but HTN gets credit for stringing together three excellent G1 wins. He doesn't deserve more credit, however, as he appeared all out to win. Raven's Pass may well do better campaigned more aggressively at a mile, simply because there is a suspicion that he has been played for speed at the trip by connections who believe he may not truly stay. Anyone watching his Ascot and Goodwood performances should conclude that he stays perfectly well and should be given a chance to utilise his stamina rather than speen when next tested. I'm not at all sure that he needs 10f but I no longer see him as a sprinter.
 
Newbury's flat straight mile would look a lot easier to me I have to admit - to name just one!
 
I know dosage means nothing to you, SL, but I find it very helpful. I agree RP's dosage means nothing much anyway on account of the low total but we'll have to agree to differ (I'm sure you can live with that, hen) about his likelihood of staying beyond a mile.

rorydelargy said:
I disagree, but not in an argumentative way ~ neither HTN nor RP were inconvenienced by the way today's race was run and the best conclusion we can make is that there isn't much between them but HTN gets credit for stringing together three excellent G1 wins. He doesn't deserve more credit, however, as he appeared all out to win. Raven's Pass may well do better campaigned more aggressively at a mile, simply because there is a suspicion that he has been played for speed at the trip by connections who believe he may not truly stay. Anyone watching his Ascot and Goodwood performances should conclude that he stays perfectly well and should be given a chance to utilise his stamina rather than speen when next tested. I'm not at all sure that he needs 10f but I no longer see him as a sprinter.
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I'd argue, but not in a disagreeable way, that the more aggressively run RP is, the further Henry would beat him, on account of Henry's stronger stamina. We already know he's faster.
 
Shadow Leader said:
How can anyone say that Goodwood is as fast and easy a mile trip as you can get?!?!?!?!?!? No chance.
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Round mile ex-Standards

Ascot 1m 40.5s (average 12.56 seconds per furlong)
Goodwood 1m 36.5s (average 12.06 spf)
Sandown (8f14y) 1m 40.8

Goodwood's mile is 4 seconds faster - that's about a third of a furlong, or 0.5s (2½ lengths) faster for every furlong travelled. That's quite a bit.

In fact, I can only find 7 courses faster in the UK:

Epsom (12.0 spf for the 8f 114y course)
Brighton (11.5spf @ 7f 214y)
Chepstow (11.3 @ 8f 14y)
Leicester (11.7 @ 8f 8y)
Newbury (11.9)
Redcar (11.7)
Yarmouth (11.88).
 
Shadow Leader said:
How can anyone say that Goodwood is as fast and easy a mile trip as you can get?!?!?!?!?!? No chance.
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I can't think of a Group 1 track that has a less taxing (stamina-wise) mile in the UK, Shads, but I'm always open to correction.

Raven's Pass had every chance to get past Henrythenavigator about a furlong and a half out but instead Henrythenavigator quickened on only to idle in the last furlong. I can understand your argument that Raven's Pass was tapped for toe (to use a cliche!) when Henrythenavigator went on but I for one certainly think Henrythenavigator has far more scope to get the extra 2 furlongs.

Someone said (might have been Headstrong :confused:) that they would have preferred to see Raven's Pass ahead of Henrythenavigator in the straight. If that was the case Henry would have tore him to shreds IMO (he hit the front too early) and quickened a couple of lengths past RP. The more cover HTN gets, the more impressive his turn of foot will be. He just does nothing when he hits the front (as was seen at Ascot).
 
It was me who made the point about Newbury Trackside :rolleyes: even without being able to put a figure on it...

You may well be right about Henry going after RP if he'd tracked the front runners rather than Henry, but it would be good if his camp TRIED something new in the way of tactics because the ones they've been using don't work! RP certainly wasn't stopping today at the business end - he was still quickening
 
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"Epsom (12.0 spf for the 8f 114y course)
Brighton (11.5spf @ 7f 214y)
Chepstow (11.3 @ 8f 14y)
Leicester (11.7 @ 8f 8y)
Newbury (11.9)
Redcar (11.7)
Yarmouth (11.88). "

Rather surprised by Leicester's position in that list of easy miles!!

I've always been led to believe that Leicester's straight course was stiff, in fact, come to think of it, hasn't the straight mile there been replaced by houses. I believe the straight is now only 7f. and the mile races go round a bend, of course, that may be load of old bollocks.
 
trackside528 said:
preferred to see Raven's Pass ahead of Henrythenavigator in the straight. If that was the case Henry would have tore him to shreds imo (he hit the front too early) and quickened a couple of lengths past RP. The more cover HTN gets, the more impressive his turn of foot will be. He just does nothing when he hits the front (as was seen at Ascot).
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Don`t you mean in Johnny Murtagh and the Ballydoyle spin machine`s opinion. He hardly zoooooooooooooooooooooooooomed past New Approach in the Guineas.
 
If Henry was on New Approach's tail at the furlong market (ala the Irish Guineas), he would have been a much easy winner. The turn of foot he displayed to close down a full flowing New Approach was seriously impressive.

While many are commenting on the ride RP has recieved recently, its notable that few have commented on how early Murtagh has been hitting the front on horse with such a turn of foot like Henrys. He should be ridden like Rock Of Gibraltar was or even Ravens Pass himself!
 
Galileo said:
While many are commenting on the ride RP has recieved recently, its notable that few have commented on how early Murtagh has been hitting the front on horse with such a turn of foot like Henrys. He should be ridden like Rock Of Gibraltar was or even Ravens Pass himself!
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I think it's too much of a gamble waiting longer. Better to make sure you win the race instead of fannying about trying to look spectacular.

One of the reasons I really got into racing was the sheer brilliance of Nijinsky. Then Brigadier Gerard came along and showed 'em how to do it. In the words of a great Irish trainer, "Start off in front and keep improving your position!"

Watching the Brigadier remorselessly extend his lead over the last half of a race was jawdropping stuff. The closest I've seen since have been Dubai Millennium and Hawk Wing.
 
Of course we'll agree to disagree DO - just reminding you I think dosage is about as useful as a dose of clap!! ;)

To my eyes and on the way RP ran yesterday, I think he would be interesting stepped up in trip. I'm not going on what the trainer says, what the pundits say, what the dosage says, what the track is like - I'm going on what I say with my eyes and how I'd interpret it. I'm not especially bothered if none of you agree, merely pointing it out!!

Interesting the assertions about Goodwood being such an easy track. Tell me, has anyone been to the track and seen it's undulations and climb to the post? True, parts of the course are downhill but like someone remarked to me yesterday that is also true at Towcester! I'd personally disagree that Goodwood is no stamina test, the rise to the post in the straight is more than you'd think it was. (and again, I'm going on my eyes, not what someone else's ideas or figures tell me!)
 
The course map in the Racing Post suggests that the last 1.5- 2 furlongs is uphill but the 6 furlong start (or at least the rise just after that start) is surely the highest point on the course?!
 
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Shadow Leader said:
Interesting the assertions about Goodwood being such an easy track. Tell me, has anyone been to the track and seen it's undulations and climb to the post? True, parts of the course are downhill but like someone remarked to me yesterday that is also true at Towcester! I'd personally disagree that Goodwood is no stamina test, the rise to the post in the straight is more than you'd think it was. (and again, I'm going on my eyes, not what someone else's ideas or figures tell me!)
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I`ve been to Goodwood and it is an easy course at distances up to and including a mile but for middle distances it is a stiff track.
 
I did also mention that there are downhill parts on the course m'dear!!!!

Of course, as I said, that theory applies to Towcester also - well, half the course is downhill so even if the finish is uphill, it doesn't make it a stiff track, does it?! :D
 
Shadow Leader said:
Of course we'll agree to disagree DO - just reminding you I think dosage is about as useful as a dose of clap!! ;)
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I'll presume you know more about that than me :p

I'm not a horsey person or even a seasoned racegoer but I did a fair bit of cycling in my prime and I'd say that undulating roads can be deceptively taxing - I suppose they can equate to some extent to interval training where you're mixing maximum effort and freewheeling - but give me that any day over a long, steady incline (for racecourses read Ascot) which I found murderous.

The other thing about the likes of Goodwood - to my untrained eye admittedly - is that you build up a good bit of momentum on the decline, which accounts for at least a third of the subsequent incline.

I'd say a lot depends on where on the track a jockey asks a horse for its effort. I thought it was a golden rule never to make a move on the incline but to get into position before the incline, hold your position on it and then use the early part of the decline to gather momentum before really asking for an effort. I'd say the best Cheltenham jockeys do this.
 
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Ruby was fascinating on this point on RTE after the Gailleamh Plate yesterday. Galway is an 'easy' track but with the dogs bollocks of an uphill finish. Ruby was effectively explaining how he was coaching young Scholfield before the race to let Hoola Baloo freewheel before the straight and not 'go for him' before then no matter how well he thought he was going. I didn't understand half of it, but it seemed to support DO's biking downhill analogy.

As our new Mr Braddick might put it - "pretend you are on a Raleigh, Gilbert."
 
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