Sussex Stakes
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Colin Phillips
At the Start
VERY good, An!
Sure, if you were to use the idea that each uphill track has to have a corresponding downhill element, then there would be no noticeable difference in times accross all tracks (over certain distances)
Think those advocating that a 1m4f race at Brighton/Bellwestown (do they have 1m4f races at Brighton?) requires the same effort as a 1m4f race at Towcester/Carlisle is moving into the "weight doesnt matter" type of scenario - beyond a racing argument and into a physics fundamentals one.
Surely standard times are a good shorthand of telling punters the difference in stiffness between the various tracks.
Think those advocating that a 1m4f race at Brighton/Bellwestown (do they have 1m4f races at Brighton?) requires the same effort as a 1m4f race at Towcester/Carlisle is moving into the "weight doesnt matter" type of scenario - beyond a racing argument and into a physics fundamentals one.
Surely standard times are a good shorthand of telling punters the difference in stiffness between the various tracks.
No, you are not. If Raven's Pass had been ridden in the position Major Cadeaux was, he would have won. Owner's quote in the post yesterday inidcated this was going to be the case, yet when he broke well, Fortune took a pull. These two (Gosden and Fortune) appear about as clued in as Beavis & Butthead in ensuring this horse gets beaten time and again.
Let's take a step back in time .. his wins last year (especially his Solario Stakes) had him ridden a lot more prominently than he has been this year. It's abundantly clear he stays at least a mile, so why not ride him positively? If he keeps giving Henrythenavigator a length or two start, it will be difficult (not impossible) to turn the positions around. What I'd like to see is the situations reversed, and Henry having to try to get to a Raven's Pass who had gotten first run. I don't believe he would.
Anyone who thinks Henrythenavigator won cosily or easily cannot read a race, imo. He was all out and another 50m and Raven's Pass would have won; it simply does not matter about the Ballydoyle Hyperbole and their insistence he had more to give, as Raven's Pass would have passed him by.
Let's leave this Ballydoyle bias aside as it infuses what can be otherwise good threads. It's funny that when Ramonti won last year with Excellent Art fast finishing, everyone was of the opinion Excellent Art was the unlucky horse, and the better horse. The colours of the jockey's silks get switched in the 2008 Renewal and the same happens to people's opinions.
Ps .. I was there yesterday, and Raven's Pass didn't look fantastic in his coat. I still backed him (albeit to a slightly reduced stake) and he could well benefit from a break.
It would be interesting to see if Ballydoyle trained Ravens Pass would the same people be making excuse after excuse for him. I would imagine it would be a case of Ballydoyle making excuses, horse not good enough, and has had enough chances.
Ravens Pass was there with plenty of time if he was good enough. It was hardly as if he sat 3-4 lengths off the winner. Furtherest he was away was around 1 to 1 & 3/4 of a length. I am not surprised RP closed on Henry towards the line, Murtagh commited a full 2 furlongs out, no wonder he was slowing down.
I do agree though, Henry did not win snugly or cosy, he was all out....but the way the race and the way he was run had more baring on it than Ravens Pass did.
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Record in Gp1s
Ravens Pass 34222 LSP -5
Henrythenav. 2111 LSP +13ish
And gosden's blind followers are calling Ballydoyle's blind followers foolish.
I dont think HTN will win another GP1 this season, but I wouldnt bet on Ravens Pass beating him either.
Ravens Pass 34222 LSP -5
Henrythenav. 2111 LSP +13ish
And gosden's blind followers are calling Ballydoyle's blind followers foolish.
I dont think HTN will win another GP1 this season, but I wouldnt bet on Ravens Pass beating him either.
That's true Andrew and it makes it difficult to have a sensible conversation about a lot of these Group 1s. FWIW, I agree entirely with your analysis above. I'm no follower of Gosden - don't like the man at all and will never forgive him for running Desert Deer in the Lockinge where he lost his life - but I *am* a fan of Raven's Pass and would love to see him given a decent shot at winning his Group 1.
Wasn't that how Excellent Art was ridden though, such as the St James Palace?
I just find it strange that when you switch the colours, people's opinions follow suit..
Wasn't that how Excellent Art was ridden though, such as the St James Palace?
I just find it strange that when you switch the colours, people's opinions follow suit..
I seem to remember Ravens Pass hitting the front early in the Dewhurst and then falling in a hole.
There was nothing to suggest from his two year old days that Excellent Art needed to be held up like that. He might have been able to get away with it against the likes of Astronomer Royal but giving Ramonti 5 lengths start is a different matter.
For the record I do not think he was particularly unlucky at Goodwood...ground was too fast for him there I think. But in the QEII I do not think Henry would have beaten Ramonti that day if the Godolphin horse was given a similar lead. It was over from the turn in.
I think very few on here (if any) follow anyone blind, including Ballydoyle. In fact, and its something that I've said on more than one occasion, I think there are as many who oppose Ballydoyle blindly, assuming that whatever horse they put up in a Gp1 its automatically going to be poor value. This year and for the past couple of years, those who following him blindly have been proven the less stupid.
Comparing last years Sussex Stakes to this years is pointless and childish. Two differnet races with four differnet horses, ridden by four different jockeys, all ridden to make their best of their individaul abilities.
Headstong's comment regarding the difficulty of sensible conversation regarding GP1 for all the pro-Ballydoyle stuff. Are you being serious? Surely you would be in clover if you took heed of those backing Ballydoyle this year in GP1s. Maybe, just maybe they are the ones talking sense.
I'm NOT talking about punting - ffs there is more to racing than punting.
I'm talking about discussing the relative merits of horses, with respect not just to their qaulities but also eg riding plans and tactics. There tends to be a bit of a 'yah boo' quality to some of the pro-Ballydoyle contingent's postings which is v tiresome - and not conducive to having a meaningful exchange of opinion
I'm talking about discussing the relative merits of horses, with respect not just to their qaulities but also eg riding plans and tactics. There tends to be a bit of a 'yah boo' quality to some of the pro-Ballydoyle contingent's postings which is v tiresome - and not conducive to having a meaningful exchange of opinion
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Regarding tactics, HS, here is something for you for the rest of the season.
Run 4.
Three of them out front.
Two furlongs out check the fav.
Ease off rails.
Let fav through.
Then run sideways and bollocks up everybody else.
Run 4.
Three of them out front.
Two furlongs out check the fav.
Ease off rails.
Let fav through.
Then run sideways and bollocks up everybody else.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Exactly. It`s like Fortune is always reacting to the way the race is run rather than being the race captain if you will (poker term) If Ballydoyle had the colt he`d have won at least one Group 1 imo. I think he`s a top class animal and one or two of you bringing up Ramonti and Excellent Art just kind of reinforces how unlucky he`s been:
1 To be up against an animal in Henry.. that is just a touch superior, and
2 That if he was a year older he`d have cleaned up last year.
Anone who follows the Ballydoyle horses in Group1 races has plenty to be getting excited about.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
They really haven`t got a feckin clue. They rated Ramonti 125 last year, this year`s renewal was far better. Compare the RPR`s of this year`s Sussex to the July Cup - if they are seriously suggesting that wednesday`s contest as a Group 1 was only just better than that they should give up rating horse races.
Just looking at Timeform's website ... they have Henry on 131 and Raven's Pass on 130. Perhaps I'm wrong but I remember New Approach being ahead of Henry after the Derby which means they have taken the view the Sussex is worthy of a 131 rating. Really?