The Derby & Irish Derby 2009

Just to put my money where my mouth is, on my reading of the trends I would go (in order of preference, not predicted finishing order!)

1. Black Bear Island
2. South Easter
3. Fame And Glory
 
On the subject of dosage, I have always found it to be a fascinating exercise, however, the thought has always struck me that the "spread" of DI's & CD's in just about every race I've seen them for renders the tool nigh on useless.

That is very true at times, but it is the times when it identifies one or two to the exclusion of the others that it comes into its own.
 
Strange with all the discussion surrounding O'Brien runners that one of the very best systems in racing is to lay his Derby runners.
 
I just watched the Guineas several times again, and Sea the Stars ran like a horse who will very much stay the Derby trip. His breeding helps this feeling, as does his temperament, the fact he is such a balanced horse and Kinane is adamant he will stay.

If one horse in this year's race is going to be a true star, it is him, and the more I watch the Guineas, the more I think 10/3 is a great, great price, especially with the likelihood of good to firm (shouldn't suit many other principals as much).

Of the outsiders, I think Montaff is overpriced. If he was trained elsewhere, he'd be much shorter, considering he had problems and was behind schedule at Lingfield.
 
I just watched the Guineas several times again, and Sea the Stars ran like a horse who will very much stay the Derby trip. His breeding helps this feeling, as does his temperament, the fact he is such a balanced horse and Kinane is adamant he will stay.

If one horse in this year's race is going to be a true star, it is him, and the more I watch the Guineas, the more I think 10/3 is a great, great price, especially with the likelihood of good to firm (shouldn't suit many other principals as much).

It may have looked like that to the eye, but the analysis warns us off. Oxx is downbeat about his chances of getting it, particularly as the Ballydoyle squad will ensure he is stretched to his limit.

He's a good horse and a very poor favourite in my view. He'll be doing brilliantly to be placed.
 
I see Fame and Glory as more and more of a bet as the race gets nearer, I wish they'd put Moore on instead of Heffernan though. His profile is similar to Gallileo and High Chaparral and were there not all the fuss over RvW, people would be talking about him being Ballydoyle's best chance since those 2. I've not backed him yet and I'm only on Gan Amhras and to a very small amount Kite Wood at the moment but if he continues to drift, it'll be hard to resist not having a very decent bet on him. The 4/1 BOG with Paddy Power and Hills already is very very tempting.
 
I'm leaning towards Hamm's view. Someone suggested earlier in the thread that Sea The Stars' Guineas victory reminded them of Nashwan's Guineas and that comparison struck me as well.

There is enough stamina in his pedigree to suggest he will get the trip (though it is, of course, an unknown). Whether he is any value at 10/3 is another story entirely; I personally don't reckon he is.

On paper before the event, this looks the strongest Derby since I've followed racing (just about 12 before someone lays into me!).
 
Even if he does get the trip, its not impossible Sea The Stars will simply bump into a better 12 furlong horse.
 
Even if he does get the trip, its not impossible Sea The Stars will simply bump into a better 12 furlong horse.

Absolutely, but asuming both get the trip (a big assumption obviously in the case of the Oxx horse), I can't help thinking that Fame And Glory would have to improve a hell of a lot more on the Derrinstown form than Sea The Stars would on the Guineas form.
 
Absolutely, but asuming both get the trip (a big assumption obviously in the case of the Oxx horse), I can't help thinking that Fame And Glory would have to improve a hell of a lot more on the Derrinstown form than Sea The Stars would on the Guineas form.

But thats a given....STS has had the opportunity to hit those sort of marks F&G has not. Much like Galileo and Golan....Golan got the Derby trip but was just beaten by a better horse despite Golan winning the Guineas.
 
Hard to disagree with that; you can only beat what you're up against etc.

I'm struggling to see a punting angle into the race tbh. Unlike the Oaks, this looks like a fantastic renewal and I would be surprised (and dissapointed) if a horse outside the top five in the market were to win.
 
I completely agree with trackside and Hamm. STS definately looked like he would relish further and the Nashwan comparison went through my mind at the time too

he look like a 10f horse (maybe more...we shall see) winning a guineas by pure class...
 
Hi all
I think this is one of the most fascinating (hence potentially lucrative) Derbys of recent years. One scenario that appears seductive is that of Age Of Aquarius leading from stall one with Golden Sword tucked in, kicking on from 3 furlongs out, holding off all-comers in a fast time on fairly fast ground.
I don't believe that any of the AOB team will be effectively stopped from winning by team orders, simply because they really don't know who their likeliest winner is, and a fast pace is the best way to choke off Sea The Stars. I was very impressed with the way GS won the Chester Vase, where the 2 that chased him finished out with the washing, and the horse himself ran right to (and through) the line. At 40-1 he'll carry my each-way money.

Oh, and by the way, my last Derby winner was Colin Todd!
 
A couple of examples:

Daylami – there was outrage when he was stepped up from a mile. The Dosage made it clear that he would improve at middle-distances.

Petrushka – I was derided in the press for insisting that Petrushka was screaming out for middle distance by one ‘expert’ who in turn insisted she was a sprinter after her Guineas trial. A couple of Group 1s later at 12 furlongs and I guess the penny dropped.

Here's one you forgot...Three Valleys to get anything near 12 furlongs!!:p
 
Last edited:
Welcome to the forum Oscar.....good thread for your first post!

Like I said already about Golden Sword, I think he will be ridden so aggressively it will be near impossible for him to place in the Derby.
 
Last edited:
I don't believe that any of the AOB team will be effectively stopped from winning by team orders

its not their horses suffering I would be worried about in that respect

i really hope we have no after race stuff re certain horses being hampered by accident and so forth :p
 
Golden Sword could also play into Sea The Stars hands. After Chester, the field won't want to let him get too far away from them. If he's asked to really pour it on, they could end up going too fast... cue pace meltdown, and Sea The Stars - ridden conservatively out the back to get the trip - getting the full benefit. An unlikely set of events, but far from impossible.
 
Julian Muscat
A major pointer to the rhythms of Saturday’s Derby surfaced earlier this week when Ballydoyle’s riding arrangements for its six runners were delivered to an expectant public.
The key booking was that of Colm O’Donoghue for Golden Sword, who made all the running under that jockey to win the Chester Vase. Bear in mind, however, that O’Donoghue also landed the Dante Stake, another important Derby trial, aboard Black Bear Island.
Had his Derby ride been down to him alone, O’Donoghue would surely have plumped for Black Bear Island. After all, Black Bear Island’s odds of 9-1 illustrate that he has far better winning prospects than Golden Sword, who trades at 40-1.
The inference must be that O’Donoghue is there to do a job at Epsom. He will ensure a strong gallop on Golden Sword, who performed precisely that function at Chester. And with Ballydoyle’s Age Of Aquarius another aggressive runner by nature, this year’s Derby has the makings of a lung-bursting renewal.
You can pretty much piece together the rest of the puzzle yourselves. With his stamina assured, Fame And Glory will be poised to strike if the early fractions are sedate. And if they are too strong, Black Bear Island and Rip Van Winkle will be well placed to capitalise from the rear. Bases covered.
Only now does the size of the task facing Sea The Stars become fully apparent. One half of the Ballydoyle cavalry will stretch his suspect stamina to the potential gain of the other. There will be nowhere for Mick Kinane to hide.
And if the stakes were not high enough, there is an intriguing subplot involving racing’s twin superpowers, Coolmore and Sheikh Mohammed.
Kinane rode Galileo to win the 2001 Derby when he was Ballydoyle’s stable jockey. Sea The Stars is a half-brother to Galileo - but with two fundamental differences. He does not race for Ballydoyle, and he is by Sheikh Mohammed’s stallion, Cape Cross. There’s a great deal of pride on the line.
Each Ballydoyle jockey will doubtless be warned against deploying team tactics, yet sheer weight of numbers confers an advantage in its own right. Six runners can create natural traffic but they can be expected to yield to one another in tight corners.
That’s precisely what happened in the Breeders’ Cup Turf last October. On that occasion O’Donoghue let the Johnny Murtagh-ridden Soldier Of Fortune up his inside, thus obliging the pursuing Out Of Control to race three-wide round the home bend. In such moments can races be won and lost.
It would be folly not to expect Ballydoyle to exploit its numerical strength. Any other stable in the same position would do likewise. Ballydoyle’s advantage is similar to that enjoyed by football clubs whose wealthy patrons afford them larger squads replete with proven internationals on the substitutes’ bench. They have a greater number of potential match-winners.
Nevertheless, Kinane is no fool. He will only get drawn into cameos of his own choosing. You can count on him to give Sea The Stars the best possible chance of victory.
To prevail, however, Sea The Stars is going to have to be an uncommonly talented racehorse. The deck is stacked against him by sheer weight of numbers.
 
Back
Top