The Derby & Irish Derby 2009

EC1 said:
what is all this 10f obsession about?
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As I understand it, it has something to do with the trend to increasingly breed for speed, and pay for 10F stallions which is being particularly driven by the all important American market.

Havign said that, it was only few weeks ago that the French were bemoaning the Prix de Jockey Club and calling for it to go back to 12F's
 
bizarre..the most sought after trip is 10f by the looks of it..either its a daft obsession or all the derbys should be that trip..do the french know what they are about?

12f is viewed as the new Leger trip now from what I can see..its just the prestige of the Derby that is chased..then its back to 10f..KG doesn't even get considered now.

a bizarre state of affairs..but if thats what everyone wants then it makes sense to have the Derby & KG at 10f..then we would have the best horses competing in both instead of the shambles we are now getting

I do not understand why people are so keen to keep the Derby at 12f then as soon as its won can't wait to win a race at owt bar that trip...if you are wanting speed for breeding CV's then why take part in the Derby at all?..its now a negative to win at 12f quite clearly when it comes to the stud book.
 
EC1 said:
bizarre..the most sought after trip is 10f by the looks of it..either its a daft obsession or all the derbys should be that trip..do the french know what they are about?

12f is viewed as the new Leger trip now from what I can see..its just the prestige of the Derby that is chased..then its back to 10f..KG doesn't even get considered now.

a bizarre state of affairs..but if thats what everyone wants then it makes sense to have the Derby & KG at 10f..then we would have the best horses competing in both instead of the shambles we are now getting

I do not understand why people are so keen to keep the Derby at 12f then as soon as its won can't wait to win a race at owt bar that trip...if you are wanting speed for breeding CV's then why take part in the Derby at all?..its now a negative to win at 12f quite clearly when it comes to the stud book.
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Nothing wrong with wanting to win at 12 furlongs and wanting to win at other trips.

Before we all go "speed crazy" lets not forget to two highest priced and best stallions in Europe are 12 furlong Derby winners who excelled at the distance and indeed one has not got a 10 furlong Group 1 to his name.
 
LBM said:
Darley don´t usually fill half the book of any stallion of theirs. I´d say they would send around 10% of STS book, especially in his first few seasons, when a rapid return of investment is wanted until the horse proves himself as a stallion. That´s what they been doing with other high-profile sires like Manduro, Authorized, etc...
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They have done. Just because they are not doing with the two you mention, doesn't mean they won't. Or on the other hand they could book ridiculous numbers in order to accomodate their own. The two you mention are not by current Darley stallions either. I hope this discussion is actually irrelevant.
 
Wasn't addressed to you.

Your post got in first.

Point was more aimed at Galileo's reference to the top European stallions being 12F horses, with the suggestion that its American money that forms market, and they're supposidly buying 10F horses
 
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Warbler said:
Point was more aimed at Galileo's reference to the top European stallions being 12F horses, with the suggestion that its American money that forms market, and they're supposidly buying 10F horses
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I would be interested to know what American money influences the European bloodstock scene. For all the talk of pace and speed...the two most expensive sires in Europe (3 up until last year) were horses that produce stayers.
 
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Warbler said:
It's a global market, and there's more money in America
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Might well be more money in America, (though pretty sure the Arabs, Coolmore and a few of the Japanese might have something to say about that) but the demand in Europe right now is for Galileo's and Montjeu's.
 
If America wasn't the preminent market then Coolmore wouldn't be running George Washington and Henrythenavigator at 10F's just before retiring them to stud, any more than they had any racing reason to Duke of Marmalade on dirt. The European market isn't without money or influence certainly, but the big bucks are stateside, and they're increasingly buying 10F horses and as I understand it least, this is where the pressure's being applied.

It started about 15 years ago and has taken root since, which is why Leger winners are now seen as a negative and horses who might conceivably have won the race like Youmzain are deliberately routed away from it by their owners if Channon is to be believed (which does seem strange given that the bleedin' things still in training). It's another reason why the French are supposed to have gone down to 10.5F's at Chantilly
 
Warbler said:
If America wasn't the preminent market then Coolmore wouldn't be running George Washington and Henrythenavigator at 10F's just before retiring them to stud, any more than they had any racing reason to Duke of Marmalade on dirt. The European market isn't without money or influence certainly, but the big bucks are stateside, and they're increasingly buying 10F horses and as I understand it least, this is where the pressure's being applied.

It started about 15 years ago and has taken root since, which is why Leger winners are now seen as a negative and horses who might conceivably have won the race like Youmzain are deliberately routed away from it by their owners if Channon is to be believed (which does seem strange given that the bleedin' things still in training). It's another reason why the French are supposed to have gone down to 10.5F's at Chantilly
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Firstly Henry and Duke did not run on dirt but I take your point. The reason those type of horses ran in the States on that sort of surface was because they are choc full of the same horses over here so a win over there would open the American market.

Galileo did not run in the Irish Champion Stakes with the American market in mind, nor did High Chaparral. I think there was a push for "speed speed speed" through the 80s,90s and early 00 but there has been a shift in recent seasons as Galileo and Montjeu are not just the top sires but they are the "sexy" ones as well. With Authorised, Madurno, Teofilo, Dylan Thomas and New Approach flooding the market in the coming seasons then I can see these sort of 12 furlong sires becoming more and more popular again.

John Oxx himself said he expects the triple crown to be seriously challenged in the new future given the dominance of Galileo and Montjeu and co.
 
Galileo said:
The reference to Conduit was in the context of the "Leger winner" running over 10 furlongs....I thought that was quite clear.

Presumably you also backed Delegator to beat Mastercraftsman at The Curragh and Ascot as there was no piece of form MCM had that put him ahead of Delegator on their Newmarket running?

I would point out I have not said Oxx "must" have a rematch...just said it would be nice (this is meant to be a sport no?). I also have not said Sea The Star's would have lost yesterday....I just wanted to see him in a strongly run 12 furlong race. He still could have won yesterday.
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Its pretty common opinion that Conduit is top class over 12f so to mention the Leger when describing him seemed as though you were being a little derogatory. I think that was your intention but apologies if not.

The Delegator/MCM argument is irrelevant, we all know the ground played a massive factor in that, and indeed I argued that it was clear MCM had improved since the English Guineas before the St James Palace, yet I thought Delegator was overpriced. As it turned out MCM won yet Delegator was closer than many expected.

Its completely O'Brien's prerogative if he runs anything against Sea The Stars, I've not said he should run F&G or any other horse against him.
 
It's another reason why the French are supposed to have gone down to 10.5F's at Chantilly
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My suspicion has been all along that the French have a longer term strategy, though. They were frustrated by the clash of dates between their own race and Epsom and were jealous of the position in the calendar of the Irish Derby as the 12f championship decider.

They started by reducing the Jockey Club in trip in the hope that it would attract high class horses who would find it a more attractive option than attempting to stay 12f at Epsom. If the change had worked, that would have been that, but they have a plan B. In the event that they decide 12f is the correct distance after all, they won't look to restore the Jockey Club to its original distance but will instead seek permission to designate the Grand Prix de Paris as the French Derby and boost prize money to at least match the Irish Derby pot.
 
Would anyone like me to remind them of who won those dastardly "speed" races known as the Eclipse and Irish Champion in 1984?
 
No LBM - I meant irrelevant in that he, STS, does not end up in Darley's hands. Nothing against you posting your opinion on anything.
 
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Looks like Fame And Glory heads to Leopardstown next for the Irish Champion following a mid-season break before a tilt at the Arc.

How long is there between the two this year? I've never been convinced running in the Irish Champion is the best route to the Arc myself.
 
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