The Derby & Irish Derby 2009
- Thread starter Guest_
- Start date
In truth I have yet to see O'Brien, Murtagh or Magnier blame the pace at Epsom for the defeat. Just forums and some in the press that have expressed that view.
That is one notable omission indeed.
And O'Brien who is now insisting that Fame wants a genuine pace "whatever the trip".
Well that is true, I don't think anyone would question that. But they did not say Sea The Star's won the Derby due to the way the race was run.
It's not good form to crab a Derby winner (sounds like sour grapes). But they have said they are keen to take STS on again at 12 furlongs or 10 furlongs now that they have 'unlocked' the secret to him (...which wasn't too much of a secret to anyone with eyes in their head).
Agreed, what they said was no different to what Kauto Star's owners said when they lost to Denman in the Gold Cup i.e. wrong conditions but never actually stated they would definitely beat Denman even with the right ones.
Completely different. Any knowledgeable racing fan could see Kauto didn't run his race at the 2008 Gold Cup; Fame & Glory did, but as he doesn't have the requisite tactical speed & needs a breakneck pace, he was never going to trouble a very cosy winner, who would have won whatever the pace.
You may even say the description of Fame & Glory is similar to Youmzain ... a plodder*
* joke!
You may even say the description of Fame & Glory is similar to Youmzain ... a plodder*
* joke!
davidjohnson
At the Start
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2007
- Messages
- 3,434
All depends on your interpretation of what is meant by 'running his race'. Yes the Derby run was at least as good as anything Fame and Glory had done pre Epsom, but at the Curragh he showed he's better than he showed at Epsom, therfore you could argue, he didn't run his race.
Firstly when the season started, Denman was odds on to win another Gold Cup before his heart problem - plenty expected Denman to win another Gold Cup regardless of conditions.
Secondly I do not think we actually disagree as much as you seem to think. Fame And Glory did not have the tactical speed to win Epsom Derby on that ground given the way the race was run and he does need a strongly run race over any trip (ideally 12 furlongs) to be seen at his best. On the day he was never going to trouble the winner. The only thing is I have doubts as to the result in a proper strongly run race as I do not think the way the race was run showed Fame And Glory in his best light. Equally I would add perhaps his best would not be good enough anyway but I still have doubts (as in the case after most slowly run races) and would like to see a rematch over the trip.
Last edited:
davidjohnson
At the Start
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2007
- Messages
- 3,434
For me there is a strong probability, or likelihood than Mourayan is a better colt at 12f than 10f given his breeding.
And with the ease in the ground compared to their last meeting at Leopardstown.
So Youmzain is a top class horse then?
That should have read "do not agree as much as you think solely on the Fame And Glory vs Sea The Stars debate!"
also add blinkers and fresh bypassing Epsom
Completely different. Any knowledgeable racing fan could see Kauto didn't run his race at the 2008 Gold Cup; Fame & Glory did, but as he doesn't have the requisite tactical speed & needs a breakneck pace, he was never going to trouble a very cosy winner, who would have won whatever the pace.
You may even say the description of Fame & Glory is similar to Youmzain ... a plodder*
* joke!
And any knowledgeable racing fan will also tell you that Denman didn't run his race in the 2009 Gold Cup... still for each to finish runner-up to the other isn't bad for horses that haven't run a race.
They said the same about Sinndar... an Irish Derby and an Arc later...
maythehorsebewithyou
At the Start
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2009
- Messages
- 202
he'd be a good cup horse next year, i think he'll need at least 2 miles..
And any knowledgeable racing fan will also tell you that Denman didn't run his race in the 2009 Gold Cup... still for each to finish runner-up to the other isn't bad for horses that haven't run a race.
They said the same about Sinndar... an Irish Derby and an Arc later...
True about Denman.
Sinndar was a monster, a true champion and he won the Derby; FAG didn't. FAG reminds me more of Soldier of Fortune.
I do not think Sinndar would have won his Derby (he ground his out) if it was run in a similar way to Sea The Stars and his victory at The Curragh was much in the same way as Fame And Glorys.
Last edited:
Yes I am discounting that in the context of the discussion in that if he did kick on (as Fame And Glory should have) then a slow pace would not have been a factor.
Sinndar (like most Derby winners) was fortunate to get a genuine test over the trip.....not one of these French style (crawl and sprint) races that are often crabbed.
Last edited:
By implying Sinndar was fortunate, i presume you are saying Fame & Glory wasn't? I always consider a jockey before assessing a horse's chances, and Heffernan is simply hot good enough at that level if things don't go according to his plan A. I don't think Fame & Glory lacked anything in luck - jockey had the opportunity to kick on, and didn't take it. Hence, it was poor jockeyship and nothing else.
Why don't Ballydoyle hire a really good second jockey? Look at that effect McEvoy had for Godolphin, great substitute and now sorely missed.
Why don't Ballydoyle hire a really good second jockey? Look at that effect McEvoy had for Godolphin, great substitute and now sorely missed.