The election 2015

At the risk of spinning the thread into another ISIL one (having said that the original title long ago lost its relevance) I think the issue of what? and how? are critical too. I'm not necessarily in favour of aerial bombing, but would instead prefer to do something meaningful. If we do go down the aerial bombing then I tend to the view that we should throw evrything we have at it (which isn't a lot). ISIL have many more pick up trucks than we do Brimstone missiles. We'll run out, we were heavily depleted after Libya

Just on the subject of France and our loyalty to them, you might like to recall Clive that in 1982 the French sent Aerospatial engineers to Argentina in order to rig up and arm exocet missiles for them so they could be fired against British shipping. If you want a definition of shameful, I'd suggest that better fits? We lost HMS Sheffield and Atlantic Conveyor as a direct result of this, and indirectly about 50 killed at Bluff Cove due to the loss of Chinooks on board the latter. The French caused the loss of about 75 British lives - Merci. Other European partners such as Spain and Italy tacitly supported Argentina too by forever trying to get sanctions lifted. The French did really well out the Falklands though. The word exocet went into the language, and quite a few order books of foreign governments too as Britain struggled to defend against it

My own sense is that Corbyn might have stumbled into the right decision for the wrong reasons, whereas Cameron is blundering into the wrong decision for the right reasons (albeit I don't buy this issue of national prestige - that's largely in the imagination of the political classes to whom it is important). You can only get the correct answer if you're asking the right question. I'm not sure Cameron is asking it. This isn't about aerial bombing (or shouldn't be)

There's a hell of a lot of moving parts in this, and massive capacity for it to go very badly wrong, medium term (history suggests you can achieve a short term success). To my mind at least, the critical gap in his analysis is his failure to link up an aerial bombing campaign with a ground offensive. Who exactly is he bombing in support of? He's hinted at this, but one of his own MP's who had access to intelligence information from the select committee politely blew him out the water when he explained that the FSA figure that Cameron was using (70,000) was not one that was remotely close to what they'd been briefed (it's much smaller) and also reinforced this by pointing out that a significant percentage of the FSA have demonstrated a penchant for defecting (principally to Al Nusra).

Just as a side observation, you might have noticed how our own commentators have subtly stopped referencing the Free Syrian Army but have instead started to apply a broader 'catch all' umbrella of "the rebels". I'm increasingly less convinced that a distinct FSA actually exists anymore, and if it does, it's perhaps no bigger than 10,000 - 15,000. Also, am I the only one who finds the BBC's prefix of Islamic State with the phrase "so called" just a tiny bit silly. It exists! Get real. It's not so called. It's as if the BBC are trying to prevent us referring to their existance by suggetsing that they're not really real you know (so called Santa Claus)

again I'm not goi go to read what can be said in three sentences rather than thirty pages


dont the left ever have anything other to say than "whatabout?" . Aren't you ever going to rise slightly above the dense student guardian reader. So what about arms to Argentina? 30 years ago? We are going to that small minded after Paris to start dragging taht up? Ignore everything else that the two great countries have worked on and stood for. Ignore the huge number of expats in each nation. Ignore the very nature of the disgusting attacks

lets bring up some engineers from God knows when and smugly say. "Ah yes whatabout"

Is it a fact of life that much of the left spends its life as losers looking back and harbouring every grievance whereas the real world asseses here and now and moves on?

dont you ever consider the here and now. Shall we not allie with Denmark because of the Vikings? Is everything a "ah yes but! Here's a grievance!"

Dismal outlook.

th bombing is right. All this nonsense that you don't do it without troops is absurd. You have to start somewhere so let's get started

problem? Lost of cheering putins attacks but on no not cameron. Cameron this cameron that. Rattle up the anglophobes
 
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I'm sure American voters looked at the ageging John McCain with a sense of reassurance knowing that Sarah Palin was waiting in the wings to be their next Commander and Chief

???

which is why he wasnt voted in perhaps?
 
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You have demonstrated and even admitted, as have I, that you know next to nothing about what is really happening in Syria yet you want to blunder in and repeat all the mistakes of the past, create more suffering and sow further hatred.

Unless a reasoned case for it can be made in an unemotive way the idea cannot be supported. There are many other ways of helping France in its hour of need.

Susan has to be defeated, not merely disrupted, and that requires the building of alliances. Lobbing missiles from a distance without a coordinated plan won't achieve that.
 
The parallels between what is now proposed in Syria, and what was proposed previously, are simply not there. The action this time is intended to see-off Daesh, rather than the Assad Government, so the context is entirely different this time.

The sole reason the Caliphate exists, is to provide a base from which a state of sustained Jihad and territorial expansion can be launched. This means it is an existential threat as long as it is in place. If Daesh are not tackled now, it will only make the fight all the more difficult years from now, when we eventually do decide to take them seriously. Anyone who believes the "If we leave them well alone, they won't harm us" line - based on the smokescreen of Russian and French targets having been hit the last several weeks - is thinking wrong-headed nonsense. Besides, we are already bombing them in Iraq.

I'm frankly surprised that no-one in the Press appears to have pointed-out that this vote has such an entirely different context to the last one - which was all about bombing Assad. RThe mumblings about transition plans etc have absolutely no place in this vote. We were well-served by the circumspection we eventually showed regarding bombing Assad, but similar navel-gazing is not necessary when it comes to deciding whether to take action against Daesh. It shouldn't even be open to question, and certainly should not be dismissed (as Corbyn and others would do) because there is no transition plan for Syria.

The cancer of Deash needs to be eradicated before there can be any talk of settlement, because it's impossible to have one, whilst they control large swathes of Syrian territory. Deal with them first -sort out Assad later.
 
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You have demonstrated and even admitted, as have I, that you know next to nothing about what is really happening in Syria yet you want to blunder in and repeat all the mistakes of the past, create more suffering and sow further hatred.

Unless a reasoned case for it can be made in an unemotive way the idea cannot be supported. There are many other ways of helping France in its hour of need.

Susan has to be defeated, not merely disrupted, and that requires the building of alliances. Lobbing missiles from a distance without a coordinated plan won't achieve that.

who says they are "lobbing missiles"? Just because I don't know exact situation and who is where doesn't mean the military are guessing. They turned Mohammed enema into dust didn't they? Due to excellent mi5 and gchq inteillgence

grass's point is right. Longer they are left alone the more they are established. How long is some fcking grand plan going to take?

i also don't think we should be allying within the Americans. There was a terrible act that should never be forgiven. we should most certainly bring it up in every discussion with Obama . All that tea thrown into the harbour. See ! Got them there! Whatabout whatabout whatabout
 
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If you want to fill someone's head in you kick them in the bollocks first and the rest will follow. That is what cameron should have told the house Imo


(as an aside I don't think there is anything remotely amusing using funny ha ha names for isis)
 
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I'ld be all in favour of it (the bombing) if I thought it would make a difference.
But I don't think it will. Britain makes a hugely valuable contribution from the intel aspect -- the drones and the humint assets on the ground. I can't see a handful of Tornadoes making a significant impact.
Best to leave France and Russia get on with the aerial bombardment without clogging up an already crowded sky.
At this remove, I have to say D Cameron's appetite for bombing seems a little like ego massage, a desire to "not be left out of the team", a craving to ingratiate himself with the Americans.
 
Can't have that at all. This is the same negativity that surrounds the "no point without troops argument" .

So so what if it's a few tornados? I'm sure the cnt that gets a missile up his arse won't be thinking "oh it's just a tornado"

And for instance... In the Second World War did we tell the new Zealand forces to **** off home because they "wouldn't make much difference"
 
who says they are "lobbing missiles"? Just because I don't know exact situation and who is where doesn't mean the military are guessing. They turned Mohammed enema into dust didn't they? Due to excellent mi5 and gchq inteillgence

grass's point is right.

Who says? I'm inclined to say you do

Posted on November 14th

"Frankly I for one do not believe for a minute that "resolving" the caliphate will make any difference at all."
 
Can't have that at all. This is the same negativity that surrounds the "no point without troops argument" .

That's not negativity Clive, that's the harsh reality of the situation. Indeed, it's the common theme you continually hear from military people. They all know that in order to throw the caliphate back, you need an army on the ground capable of seizing territory and killing. You achieve this by capitalising on the tactical advantage and confusion that your cause by weakening a defensive position in the immediate aftermath of an airstrike. See if you can find a single military expert anywhere who is claiming that we don't need a ground force to win this? bet you can't.

So that begs the obvious question of who is going to perform this role. This is why Putin's intervention has a great deal more tactical sense to it. He has a candidate and is bombing in support of them (not hundreds of miles away where they can't capitalise). All you're suggesting to be honest is vanity bombing

The first thing we need to do really is recognise that the caliphate is surrounded, and supplied by just a few roads. We need to seal up the borders the best we can and stop supplies of men and munitions getting in (well slow it up to be more truthful).

Once you've achieved this the issue of ground forces and co-ordinating action properly can begin. Now this is when serious progress becomes possible. The question though is who? I think there's a few hints yet that Putin with some of his recent diplomatic moves concerning Iran and Iraq is trying to open up an air corridor which might even permit an airborne assault of his own - high stakes stuff. A preference for a coalition of arab countries to sort this out risks a massive escalation and could be even more reckless yet. The best solution is for the Syrian and Iraqi governments to reclaim their own territory without inviting groups like Hezbollah and Quds into the fray. That dilutes the ISIL narrative quite substantially, but it's going to require that we broker some sort of ceasefire amongst some beligerents, and then bomb in support of an interest which we're opposed to. Not an easy trick to perform politically if you're more obsessed with your own ego and don't have the ability to conceed error, but it's by far and a way the best solution in terms of achieving a result and minimising contagion
 
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dont you ever consider the here and now.

I consider the past precedents, the here and now, and what the future roll out this will be. With all due respect, you're just catching up. A number of us were in the camp of preferring to support an imperfect Assad (and Gadaffi) at the outset four years ago, precisely because we foresaw this situation and that a working class conservative Islamist movement would have a greater appeal amongst fighting age men across the world then a radical pro democracy movement. They were always more likely to prevail in any battle

Also we had a deep suspicion (confirmed by a number of defections since) that a number of so called democratic groups were wrapping themselves up in the clothing and language of the west precisely to lever in support and military hardware. They played the west like a violin and the west fell for it. The Americans admit that they've spent $500M to train no more than 100 fighters, and that much of the hardware they supplied these groups has been handed over to a combination of Al Nusra and ISIL
 
Who says? I'm inclined to say you do

Posted on November 14th

"Frankly I for one do not believe for a minute that "resolving" the caliphate will make any difference at all."

you are intent on wasting my time aren't you?

that is completely out of context and you know it. I clearly said that resolving the caliphate will not get rid of worldwide Islamist extremist beliefs . That doesn't mean you don't take actiondoes it? I don't even need to refer back but you did and are still a time waster

and those endorsing this garbage should have the intelligence to check the comments
 
I hope the potential aerial campaign is more than just a token gesture on behalf of the U.K.

I take a really simple view that there's plenty of countries already bombing the joint and its not worth the risk of us getting involved in a aerial military activity that won't achieve much anyway.
 
That's not negativity Clive, that's the harsh reality of the situation. Indeed, it's the common theme you continually hear from military people. They all know that in order to throw the caliphate back, you need an army on the ground capable of seizing territory and killing. You achieve this by capitalising on the tactical advantage and confusion that your cause by weakening a defensive position in the immediate aftermath of an airstrike. See if you can find a single military expert anywhere who is claiming that we don't need a ground force to win this? bet you can't.

So that begs the obvious question of who is going to perform this role. This is why Putin's intervention has a great deal more tactical sense to it. He has a candidate and is bombing in support of them (not hundreds of miles away where they can't capitalise). All you're suggesting to be honest is vanity bombing

The first thing we need to do really is recognise that the caliphate is surrounded and supplied by just a few roads. We need to seal up the borders the best we can and stop supplies of men and munitions getting in (well slow it up to be more truthful).

Once you've achieved this the issue of ground forces and co-ordinating action properly can begin. Now this is when serious progress becomes possible. The question though is who? I think there's a few hints yet that Putin with some of his recent diplomatic moves concerning Iran and Iraq is trying to open up an air corridor which might even permit an airborne assault of his own - high stakes stuff. My own preference would be for a coalition of arab countries to sort this out, but it risks a massive escalation and could be even more reckless yet. The best solution is for the Syrian and Iraqi governments to reclaim their own territory without inviting groups like Hezbollah and Quds into the fray. That dilutes the ISIL narrative quite substantially, but it's going to require that we broker some sort of ceasefire amongst some beligerents, and then bomb in support of an interest which we're opposed to. Not an easy trick to perform politically

None of the above changes the fact that if we can lend a hand and whack a few of them out.. Then GOOD

what is the fcking problem with that?
 
None of the above changes the fact that if we can lend a hand and whack a few of them out.. Then GOOD

what is the fcking problem with that?

I've no problem with getting involved Clive, and would be prepared to go much further if need be. But ..... I want what we do to be substantial and gamechagingly decisive. All I see at the moment is duplicating what we're doing in Iraq which is in effect playing 'whack a mole'

I'm very clear that the caliphate needs to be defeated, and quite probably brutally, but that needs a few governments to shift their political stance (however temporary) and swallow their pride, unless they're prepared to commit their own troops.

I wouldn't necessarily be against 'boots' incidentally, but would regard it as a plan C (not quite last resort stuff, but moving towards it)

I'd also be more comfortable too if I knew we'd secured our own backdoor first. I'm not particularly impressed by the creation of a so-called rapid reaction force that is going to take us 10 years to build. We need something that's capable of 'going' inside 10 minutes! We used to be able to build bombers in 24 hours and fly them straight into theatre in WW2. Why is it taking until 2025 to mattle an extra 2000 troops onto 16 Air Assault Brigade?
 
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I've no problem with getting involved Clive, and would be prepared to go much further if need be. But ..... I want what we do to be substantial and gamechagingly decisive. All I see at the moment is duplicating what we're doing in Iraq which is in effect playing 'whack a mole'

Whatever the the next stage is has to be worked on but there is no point at all in not inflicting damage whilst we can. The alternative is to step back and do nothing. Its one or other.
 
The thing is, sometimes in foreign policy (unlike basketball) I reckon the best form of defence is defence.

We all like to believe the more we 'do something' the more we solve a problem, and I felt that way about Assad, but the situation is beyond the pale now.

I'm afraid we should consider a self defence role, while at the same time become more irritated that it was the Iraq war 2003 and its cheerleaders that put us in this ******* chaos.

Blair is now a more controversial leader in historical terms than Pinochet or Mugabe, he's in a select league table which includes Adolf, and err...Adolf, oh and his own mate George! So there's three wise men...

Three blokes that changed history for sure...its so so sad.
 
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I consider the past precedents, the here and now, and what the future roll out this will be. With all due respect, you're just catching up. A number of us were in the camp of preferring to support an imperfect Assad (and Gadaffi) at the outset four years ago, precisely because we foresaw this situation and that a working class conservative Islamist movement would have a greater appeal amongst fighting age men across the world then a radical pro democracy movement. They were always more likely to prevail in any battle

Also we had a deep suspicion (confirmed by a number of defections since) that a number of so called democratic groups were wrapping themselves up in the clothing and language of the west precisely to lever in support and military hardware. They played the west like a violin and the west fell for it. The Americans admit that they've spent $500M to train no more than 100 fighters, and that much of the hardware they supplied these groups has been handed over to a combination of Al Nusra and ISIL

wrong

totally

there are how many "fighting age working class men" in tunisia. Population is over 10m so shall we go for 3m?

how many went to fight for isis? The story you kep banging on about? 3000 was it?

1%


lets ts look at support in other muslim countries

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/
 
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Sadly for you Clive, wars are not won by opinion polls. Quite frankly, it's a complete red herring. Same as your whacky and deluded conclusion that Russia couldn't get involved in this because their economy is smaller than Italy's

Resarch findings are only meaningful in a war situation if the majority of others are prepared to pick up weapons and fight and die if need be. If they aren't you may as well survey the number of starfish washed up on Skegness beach. Complete waste of time, unless of course you think we should bomb ISIL with copies of Pew research and hope that they realise how unpopular they are and then stop behaving badly?
 
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What?

its in response to your claim that working class muslims across the Islamic world will be more drawn to isis than democracy

wrong.

You our were gleefully telling us how democratic Lebanon is failing . The pollsters couldn't find ONE SINGLE isis supporter
 
What?

its in response to your claim that working class muslims across the Islamic world will be more drawn to isis than democracy

Yeah that's right.

Look.... wars are won by people who fight them. They are not won by telephone opinion pollsters. I think you're confusing war with Strictly Come bloody Dancing!

Let me put it this way then. Where is your pro-democracy majority then?

Some of them have shown a willingness to take up arms, but they've done so in nothing like numbers that your opinion pollster suggests they would. Neither have they shown a great appetite for the fight either. In Iraq they possessed superior weapons and a numerical advantage of 10 to 1, but ran away. Did the same in northern Nigeria too.

I think you need to re-read what I wrote as well

because we foresaw this situation and that a working class conservative Islamist movement would have a greater appeal amongst fighting age men across the world then a radical pro democracy movement. They were always more likely to prevail in any battle

You almost cut an image in my mind of a confused opinion pollster standing there with his clipboard looking completely befuddled as ISIS come storming in saying 'this isn't supposed to happen we surveyed the population and 95% of the population don't support them.'

There are plenty of examples from history where vicious minorities have experienced little difficulty in imposing their will over passive majorities. This is just another example of it, which is why market research is just such a stupid blind alley to go down when trying to defeat ISIL. It's a red herring. You need to focus on the fighting age males and particularly those who are the most capable ('hard' in any other language)

Actually there's another phrase for it "no one likes us, we don't care"

You presumably don't like ISIL? OK, that counts as a vote for academic research, but it's of little other value. The practical question is are you prepared to undertake weapons training, travel to Syria, join a democratic militia, and then fight them hard with the risk of being killed? I would suggest the answer is no. In which case your rejection of their philosophy counts for what on the battlefield? In this case you won't even be on the battlefield.

You might enjoy an endorsement of 95% for your position, but what if only 20% of these people are able to fight (combination of age and gender). Of those 20% only 15% are prepared to. From what's left, only a fraction are any good at fighting. The size and capability of your army is quickly eroded, and that's how you end up losing against seasoned fighters who are undeniably fanatical.
 
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No , I read it correctly. It is wrong

pro democracy poll? I will hazard a guess and say it's more than the 1% in tunisia and God knows what tiny percentage across the Islamic world
 
Explain to me why the Islamic State isn't being swept away by the people who live in these countries then? explain to me why we aren't seeing millions of muslims flocking into Syria and Iraq to crush them? They should be defeated within days shouldn't they?
 
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OK I'll try and put some figures on for you

The first article dates from August 2013, the position of the secularists has deteriorated since

http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/09/09...-good-guys-and-bad-guys/#.Ui6lwS-cszh.twitter

Shortly into this article you'll get a link to something written by Charles Lister for Janes Terrorism and Insurgency Centre that better breaks down the groupings which are increasingly being called 'rebels'. You might only be able to view it once before it locks you out and tries to get you to make an account (at which point you'll doubtless be peppered to death by 1000 emails)

The upshot (for those unable to read it) is that as much as 60%+ of the insurgency (the anti Assad rebels) would be capable of being described as anti democratic and working towards an Islamic State. It concludes that there are as many as 1000 distinct rebel groups, many of which are only really active in their own locality. The trend however has been towards the Islamist conservatives gaining followers, and winning the military encounters (this has continued since it was written). The other trend is that groups that were once considered moderate, have increasingly been vulnerable to losing the emotional argument, with many suffering defections of conscience and moving over, predominantly to Al Nusra and then ISIL

During his 'case for bombing' made this week Cameron claimed that there were 70,000 FSA soldiers with the implication that these were reliable moderates. He was challenged by one of his own MP's on this. Cameron never rebutted the challenge.

We might conclude the 70,000 is the residual of an out dated John Kerry figure from this period (2013), as the three broad groups featured under the rebel banner conveniently add up to 70,000. They are;

9,000 fighters from Suqor Al Sham - Their commander is technically aligned to the FSA, but in the field they've been fighting alongside Ahrar Al Sham, Jabhat Al Nusra and ISIS. They might be under the rebel umbrella for accounting purposes, but they've rejected democracy and are pledged to create an Islamic State. They should really be considered 'bad guys'

31,000 Free Syrian Army - this figure is felt to be nearer to 20,000 now due to deaths, defections, and most prevalent, a hardening of attitudes. The Foreign Affairs Select Committee took evidence on this and concluded as follows regarding the fighting capability and alignment of the FSA on page 14 of their recent report

"witnesses told us that there were few “moderates” left and that the FSA was now “very weak”. There appeared to be little chance of a legitimate and functioning ally emerging from the chaos soon".

This just left the 30,000 broadly aligned to Liwa al Tawid, Liwa al Islam and the Farook Brigades. These are the groups that America has recently been trying to flesh up, but it's a long way short of being able to win a war at the moment and close to the last throw of the dice (not impossible though imho)

The picture increasingly is that the bad guys are starting to out number the good guys.

An interesting dynamic is that the fighting strength of ISIL in Syria and Iraq has remained the same throughout the conflict (about 30,000). Basically the 'zeal' for democracy generates no where near the same level of fighting commitment as Islam. ISIL just bring in new recruits to replenish their deaths, the moderate opposition struggle. Moderate opposition can express whatever opinion they like over a telephone to a DC polling organisation. So what? If it isn't translating into a fighting commitment, it's much diminished in the context of this conflict. If you want to maintain the idea of using market research Clive, then think of it terms of the expressed preference versus the revealed preference. In this case the revealed actions are more important to the outcome than the expressed opinion. Very few of those expressing a preference are prepared to back it up, and choose flight ahead of fight. This was foreseeable, and this is why relying on an expressed preference to inform your understanding of the likely outcome was borderline negligent.

Supply is critical to the tactical outcome. The principal supply route into ISIL territory is still the north west of Syria through Turkey (the bit where the Russian plane was shot down). This needs blocking up the best we can. In addition we're also likely to have the problem of a Kurdish homeland to plant on the Turkish border longer term (shades of Israel). All the ingredients are there for absolute mayhem, and especially if it starts to develop a Sunni Shia conflict with Iranian involvement, or if Putin actually invades and comes into conflict with western proxys

For all their efforts in Iraq, the RAF estimate they've killed just 300 ISIL combatants. When the ISIL baby making factories come on stream proper in the next decade, (today's infants reaching martyrdom age) they'll be outputting more than this every week. We need a more substantial action to be honest

For now though the only fighting force that looks capable of taking on ISIL and the various Islamist affiliates in Syria on these projections is the Alawite army of President Assad. I think they'll lose though without support as they too can't replenish their losses at the rate they need to, and reckon Putin has also come to that conclusion too. The west are no where near to swallowing this hard fact yet, and are really burying their heads in the sand.

Basically our options are running out, but the direction of travel is a reproachment with Putin and some kind accommodation with Assad
 
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