The election 2015

Whatever the the next stage is has to be worked on but there is no point at all in not inflicting damage whilst we can.

Are you referring to the Brimstone missile (which is the talk of the media at the moment). If you are, it's worth considering that you don't have an inexhaustable supply of these things.

So if you're talking about knocking out a high value target therefore, I'd agree with you. If however you're talking about simply firing up some Mazda for the sake of it, I'd be more cautious.

I think I'm right in saying that there is only one maufacturer of this missile in the world, and that they cost about £100,000 to make and about 2-3 days to produce one (open to correction on that). We ran very low after Libya, and the MoD placed an order for about 300 shortly after. The chances are we only have in the region 600-700 of them.

If we ever do agree a proper battle plan, you might be required to use them strategically in support of ground forces. You might regret firing a few hundred ad hoc at various pick up trucks if ISIL are replacing them within a few hours anyway
 
Im not going over it again. If sheep and mugs on here want to believe that the majority of working class men in the muslim world desire isis over democracy then that's up to them You can depesrately scrambler around but it's simply not true.

its so far wide of the mark its not even worth a second look
 
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ukip odds in Oldham shrinking again. The candidate and demographic will probably save labour but to lose such a seat whilst in opposition would be incredible
 
To be honest, I'm not sure if the UK joining the bombing campaign in Syria will make much of a material difference.

My intent was really to point out the dichotomy of bombing Daesh in one place (Iraq) and not in the other (Syria), and how objections due to the lack of a "transition plan" are nonsensical in the current context.

Clive, if referring to them as Daesh rather than IS gets on their tits, or insults them, then that is good enough reason to call them Daesh, imo.
 
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Im not going over it again. If sheep and mugs on here want to believe that the majority of working class men in the muslim world desire isis over democracy then that's up to them You can depesrately scrambler around but it's simply not true.

I'll settle for the fact that everyone else seems to have understood, there's always someone at the bottom of the class though, and however much time you spend with them, they simply can't grasp things. In the old days we used to put a dunce cap on them, today I think we'd just put you in your special school for learning difficulties.

The issue of how support translates into a willingness to fight for it (and fight aggressively) is what frames the composition of armies. This was always likely to be the case. It was entirely foreseeable that more people would pick up weapons in the name if Islam than they would democracy. A motivated minority will continue to prosecute their cause aggressively. An ambivalent majority can easily be defeated.

War isn't a celebrity vote off competition, so frankly popularity as expressed through survey methods is a complete red herring.

I note you've failed to answer the question that was posed though.

If so many people are dead set on democracy why aren't they fighting for it? Why aren't they able to mobilise an army of millions and wipe all the other dictators and fringe fanatics from the battlefield through their overwhelming weight of numbers?
 
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You are basically an over wordy show off boring twat who simply isn't as smart as you want people to think you are. Far from it. The personal comments demonstrate precisely that all you are simply getting desperate, continually digging after being shown up as posting prejudiced nonsense

you were well and truly exposed with your endless drivel and laughable claims dressed up as facts. Bottom of the class is someone who doesn't understand what the figures 1% and 100% stand for

In truth, that is retarded

you made a very clear statement. a statement which you present as fact and is absolute unsubstantiated rubbish plucked from no where

you are obsessed with the fact that Arabs need dictators and you seize any opportunity to rubbish Democracy. You are also weirdly obsessed with third world wars , dictators and weapons

The question is unbelievably stupid. Why should they? Just because they don't want to fight for a cause in another country doesn't mean that they don't strongly support in their own. What an ludicrous point


every single poll has demonstrated over and over again that the majority of Muslims of all ages and classes want representation and most emphatically, by enormous margins., (100 to zero in Lebanon) Do not support isis


there are far more muslims living under democracy than dictatorships. And Few in Pakistan, tunisia, Indonesia, to name but three, are looking to change that any time soon.

A pity isn't it?

live with it.

One thing that is very striking is that when your lies are exposed you simply flood the page with endless drivel. It's boring.

No longer interested.
 
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Just as an aside and away from the above nonsense, I get sick of hearing in the media that tunisia is a "small" Arab nation. It is almost twice the size of Libya and Syria.

Strange as it may seem to some, land mass is not the measure of the size of a nation.
 
To be honest, I'm not sure if the UK joining the bombing campaign in Syria will make much of a material difference.

My intent was really to point out the dichotomy of bombing Daesh in one place (Iraq) and not in the other (Syria), and how objections due to the lack of a "transition plan" are nonsensical in the current context.

Clive, if referring to them as Daesh rather than IS gets on their tits, or insults them, then that is good enough reason to call them Daesh, imo.

this is a point I don't get at all. I go back to the public sector mentality.. And that is a huge insult I know



it doesn't matter what level of difference it makes at all. Who here has any idea what that might be? It's a completely irrelevant point (although I gather that the French have indicated something along the lines that there is a necessary fit here)



the only way to make "no difference" ?

do nothing
 
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To be honest, I'm not sure if the UK joining the bombing campaign in Syria will make much of a material difference.

My intent was really to point out the dichotomy of bombing Daesh in one place (Iraq) and not in the other (Syria), and how objections due to the lack of a "transition plan" are nonsensical in the current context.

It won't make much material difference without a ground offensive. That's hardly a unique opinion of mine though. It's the widely held view of a majority of qualified military experts. Targeting random lawn mowers in Aleppo is only going to run you out of missiles eventually

The problem the west faces therefore is just who, is going to do the hard yards on the ground? Putin has his candidate and is bombing in support of them. The wests options aren't as clear imho

The FSA is disintegrating by the month and gradually going over to Al Nusra. The Kurds won't fight beyond their own homeland. The west could find itself faced with an embarassing Hobsons choice of having to find a way to justify backing Assad ("the butcher"). Their only other option is Liwa al Tawid and Liwa al Islam which at the moment at least, aren't really up to the fighting strength capable of winning this (the best they might be able to do is fight their way to the post war settlement table). I think they might prove more resiliant than many are predicting incidentally, but they've got a mountain to climb in terms of establishing primacy, but I wouldn't be completely confident in writing them off

If backing Assad is unpalatable, then the west is going to need to consider one of two and a half options as far as I can see

1: Finding other arab proxy's (Hezbollah, and Iran)
2: Invading, and doing it themselves (my plan C)
2b: Just letting Putin get on with it

I'm not sure which of the these is the more dangerous? You might of course find that Putin has already put forces in on the ground by then, in which case you have a really hazardous situation developing whereby Russia is actively engaged in supporting the UN recognised government of Syria on request, and we're now fighting alongside a disperate rebel group, potentially in direct conflict

The other option of using willing arab proxies risks setting off a series of Shia militias reeking retribution on Sunnis, as we saw in Tikrit. What happens then? Do the sunni states who are already sponsoring, start to engage more openly? I don't know, but we can probably all accept that it looks perilous and not exactly what we wanted to achieve. Longer term, it also risks the creation of a Russian facing Shia nexus across the north of the region (Syria, Iraq, & Iran) ranged against an American facing Sunni nexus in the Gulf. That doesn't look particular helpful as the foundation for future tensions either

In the context, I don't believe the absence of a transition plan is actually without its merits as a concern, but I'm going to stop short of calling it a reason not to engage. I prefer to think of its absence as something else that adds more to the debilitating noise, and makes what is already a complicated situation, that little bit more difficult. If we can't agree a transition plan, then clearly the possibility of Western and Russian, or Shia and Sunni coming up against each other increases as different forces pursue conflicting strategies, albeit it would be a mistake to say this is an unavoidable conflict. It should have red warning lights flashing all over it though

Russia have offered the west a perfectly acceptable plan so far as I can see. Assad has agreed to fair and open democratic elections in the future. All the Russians are asking is that he be allowed to stand as a candidate. The west however seem to want to pick the candidates for this free and open democratic election. If they accepted the Russian suggestion then they've effectively been handed a get of jail card to couch their military intervention under; support of a future democratic process (which if they're correct, Assad will surely lose?)

Ultimately the country has little prospects anyway post war and is likely to need redrawing (no easy task given that it's likely to involve a Kurdish homeland on the Turkish border). Syria is going to be an economic and social wreck with all its infrastructure smashed up, plus 101 competing groups all wanting something from each other. You could easily see a second civil war erupting with criminal gangs and tribes now leading the charge. I doubt any meaningful election could take place anyway, which might suit everyone yet. Or put it another way, if you're going to showcase democracy, then the blind advocates of this might pause to consider just what landscape they're going to be inheriting first. You could easily end up setting something up that is doomed from the outset and does more damage to the wider cause than good
 
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The question is unbelievably stupid. Why should they? Just because they don't want to fight for a cause in another country doesn't mean that they don't strongly support in their own. What an ludicrous point

No, it's an absolutely vital point. You can't vote ISIL away like you want to. The call to arms was always likely to be answered more aggressively in the name of Islam than it was in the name of democracy. That's why the democratic armies are losing Clive, and anyone with a grasp of this dynamic (obviously I don't include you) foresaw this

As regards your suggestion that "personalised comments" is evidence of someone "getting desperate" - I think it mildly amusing that they've come from you of all people. And without any irony in a post that uses the language you choose to :lol:
 
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Just as an aside and away from the above nonsense, I get sick of hearing in the media that tunisia is a "small" Arab nation. It is almost twice the size of Libya and Syria.

Strange as it may seem to some, land mass is not the measure of the size of a nation.

England & Wales are MASSIVE: slightly smaller than Tunisia with five-times the population. Frightening, particularly as there's uninhabitable desert north and west of Watford, eh Clever Clive?
 
this is a point I don't get at all. I go back to the public sector mentality.. And that is a huge insult I know



it doesn't matter what level of difference it makes at all. Who here has any idea what that might be? It's a completely irrelevant point (although I gather that the French have indicated something along the lines that there is a necessary fit here)



the only way to make "no difference" ?

do nothing

How could anyone take this seriously, it really plumbs all known depths of futile stupidity.
 
The troll is back. Nothing to say. Nothing to add. Nothing to contribute

Or maybe you are as thick as believe yo to be and cannot grasp that a handful of tornados attacking will have more effect than none at all

is that difficult?
 
Well a quiz question for dan ec and grey

take your time over this. It's tricky

which scenario is more Dangerous to isis

a. Isis troops on the ground and a dozen fighter jets targeting them

b. Isis troops on the ground and clear blue Sky

now give it some time. I'll give you a hint and forget cameron and the evil Brits for a moment

what is more dangerous? Fresh air or a missile?

i will be generous and patient and not say what I'm thinking about the back of the class ...to use warblers expression...or The divs... to use mine But it was in response to grass's "won't make any difference" slightly throwaway remark. Understandable but I say that every contribution does make a difference

Got it??

Well done . Now fck off
 
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No, it's an absolutely vital point. You can't vote ISIL away like you want to. The call to arms was always likely to be answered more aggressively in the name of Islam than it was in the name of democracy. That's why the democratic armies are losing Clive, and anyone with a grasp of this dynamic (obviously I don't include you) foresaw this

As regards your suggestion that "personalised comments" is evidence of someone "getting desperate" - I think it mildly amusing that they've come from you of all people. And without any irony in a post that uses the language you choose to :lol:

shall we clear this up once and for more. Just to help the sheep . Are we really having to go over this again

this has nothing to do with the war or battles. Or numbers on eitehr side...because

you stated that the MAJORITY of fighting age muslims will will plump for jihadism. Shall I requote?

a majority is represented by a %

i wouldn't expect the sheep to understand what a % indicates but I had thought you might have done

at the end of the day it killed the point you made. Massively. You could have accepted it and admitted it needed rephrasing but it went on and on

whether one side is more motivated to fight than the otehr is completely besides the point in relation to the statement you made

the only interesting thing to come out of this is the seeming likelihood that isis is far more popular amongst european muslims than those in most muslim States. That is interesting
 
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England & Wales are MASSIVE: slightly smaller than Tunisia with five-times the population. Frightening, particularly as there's uninhabitable desert north and west of Watford, eh Clever Clive?

having been to Romford recently... And that's East
 
As we now seem to have two threads dedicated to Daesh, an observation if I may:

If ever there was a gordion knot of a problem to unravel, the solution of which is unknown and unknowable, this is it

So why are you so sure of yourself Clivex? And why do you dismiss those who disagree with such vehemence?

You have opinions, as does everyone else; but opinions they are, no more no less and it would be nice to hope a degree of consensus would emerge following robust discussion

But no, it just keeps slipping into slanging matches and ad hominem; which are jolly amusing but serve no purpose

I'm not sure if I qualify as a twat or a troll, probably both, so please do advise me to fu'ck off if it makes you feel better

I do know that I'm a poorly-educated dullard on 'middle-eastern matters' who is endeavouring to develop an opinion I'm comfortable with, and have found your, Warbler's and AN Other's input useful in formulating it; but what I do know is that neither you, Warbler nor AN Other are 'right'. How can anyone be?
 
I think drone you should read the posts I was responding to perhaps?. And the comments within and then come back? Fair to give back what I get? no offence

I backed my my opinions strongly drone. Links. Facts . Polls. They are not based on speculation. Have a proper go at the detail or not at all. I think they are important. The misconception that jihadism is strong across all muslims and the big decisions as to whether we can at least "make a difference"

Ill admit the digs at civil servants but I just thought everyone in normal life did that every day of the week.


freely admit I do dislike one of the posters as a poster and should just ignore obvious baiting.

Warbler is never right. That's a fact. And if he disputes it , it clearly proves he is wrong once again. But he does know ther difference between a Winchester rifle and a sidewinder missile and I'm not sure I do.

Fact is is no one really know the future but the points I made were about the precise here and now

you are certainly neither a twat or a troll.

never complain. Never explain
 
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shall we clear this up once and for more. Just to help the sheep . Are we really having to go over this again

this has nothing to do with the war or battles. Or numbers on eitehr side...because

you stated that the MAJORITY of fighting age muslims will will plump for jihadism. Shall I requote?

Shall you requote? What stopped you ..... ?

If you're going to quote or categorically say that someone stated something Clive, then you really should get into the habit of doing so verbatim and using quotation marks to indicate that this is what you're doing.

So this is what was actually posted;

"a working class conservative Islamist movement would have a greater
appeal amongst fighting age men across the world then a radical pro democracy movement. They were always more likely to prevail in any battle"

In the context of the point I'm making, I'm clearly talking about the practicalities of fighting. Why else would I restrict the sample to "fighting age men" and going onto develop this point in the very next sentance by stating "more likely to prevail in any battle". Note I haven't said more likely to prevail in an election.

In that regard then, it should be clear that the "appeal" to which I'm referring, is that which motivates people to pick up weapons and fight. Yes, the appeal of conservative Islam to motivate "fighting age men across the world" (to engage war in its name) is greater than that of democracy. You can evidence this by the flow of volunteers into Islamic state. I asked you where the corresponding evidence was for the "pro-democracy majority" to do similar (the time I did use the word majority incidentally was actually to acknowledge their passive existance) you'll find it in posts #1170 and #1172.

The source post in question is #1161, you will hopefully recognise that it hasn't been the subject of an editorial action and therefore recognise it as an accurate record of what I posted. Therefore, since you're so confident that I; "stated that the MAJORITY of fighting age muslims will will plump for Jihadism". I'm going to invite you to interogate the post in question and see if you can find where I stated this using the exact word you've selected to put in upper case letters. Talk about putting words in people's mouths Clive.

Also your suggestion that "this has nothing to do with wars or battles. Or numbers on eitehr side" is completely out of context with the original post I made, and the one you responded to. Basically it has everything to do with wars and battles and numbers on either side. This is actually vital to anyone's understanding of how fighting men are motivated, and how they translate that motivation into a tangible action. To ignore this, and place your faith instead in a market research exercise is to bury your head in the sand. It's why I've suggested that your contribution is a red herring, until ..... and this is crucial .... the majority pro democratic leaning body is prepared to convert their expressed preference into a revealed preference (a fighting action, or something substantial that moves towards challenging the minority).
 
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Not how it reads and you know it
ok so you will accept that jihadism has appeal to a very small minority of any class in the vast majority of muslom countries. ? Or do we need to prove that again

I will just not agree with your assertion that in the event of war the majority will turn to isis or equivalent. I simply do not believe it and that is that.
 
Warbler is never right. That's a fact. And if he disputes it , it clearly proves he is wrong once again. But he does know ther difference between a Winchester rifle and a sidewinder missile and I'm not sure I do.

:lol:

Warbler would be interested to know is Saudi Arabia, Italy or Germanys GR4's have a Brimstone capacity though. I'm guesisng they don't, but since Saudi is supposed to be active partner it might be interesting to know.
 
Not how it reads and you know it
ok so you will accept that jihadism has appeal to a very small minority of any class in the vast majority of muslom countries. ? Or do we need to prove that again

I will just not agree with your assertion that in the event of war the majority will turn to isis or equivalent. I simply do not believe it and that is that.

The revelation that wars are started and fought by a minority of populations is nothing new Clive. I've said this before, and indeed laboured that very point myself. I can't think of any war in history that has been "fought" by a majority, albeit you might have some wriggle room regarding those contributing to a 'war effort'. I don't really understand what eureka moment you think you've discovered outside of stating the bloody obvious

Indeed, I have constantly sought to draw a paralell with the IRA which was often reckoned to be no more than 300-400 strong at any given time. The evidence is clear. A radicalised and committed 1% of a population can cause you a real problem. It's clearly better to have 99% moderates than 99% extremists, but their moderation is only of any consequence for being passive. So long as it remains passive, it doesn't convert into a challenge to the extremist view. This is of fundamental importance to understanding how 'sides' shape up, and ultimately the type of threat we could face on our own streets

In real numbers 100% of 1% will convert into more substantive action than 0% of 99% (to be really simplistic about it).

Once again, can I invite you to reproduce where I have said "that in the event of war the majority will turn to isis or equivalent". I've never, ever said anything of the sort (although I'll accept you paraphrasing from something that has been flogged to death now)

What I said is "a working class conservative Islamist movement would have a greater appeal amongst fighting age men across the world then a radical pro democracy movement. They were always more likely to prevail in any battle"

The acid test in all of this is how that 'appeal' translates into a substantive action. That's what's important. It's critical. It's this 'appeal' that appears on the battlefields and war zones. The aggressive appeal of violent extremism motivates more people to fight than the passive appeal of democracy.

How else has ISIL maintained their fighting strength at about 30,000 otherwise? The answer is simple. They're replenishing their losses by introducing new fighters who have fallen for this appeal. By contrast groups like the FSA and the Syrian army aren't able to do so to the same degree. It's critical to understand this, because ISIL can successfully fight a war of attrition and prevail against these enemies. Only once you recognise this do you begin to start to grapple with the future.

How are you going to arrest their momentum? I think you can check it to some extent from the air, but you need to throw it into reverse, and that means confronting it on the ground (and of course cutting their supply lines the best you can)

You might interested to know incidentally that Laurent Fabius might have let a diplomatic cat out the bag (which caused him to have to furiously row back). Sometimes people will posture in public, but diplomatically they'll be doing something else behind the scenes. Hollande has of course met Putin for a pow wow this week, one is inclined to speculate that the French might have come to understanding with the Russians
 
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:lol:

Warbler would be interested to know is Saudi Arabia, Italy or Germanys GR4's have a Brimstone capacity though. I'm guesisng they don't, but since Saudi is supposed to be active partner it might be interesting to know.

The Saudis have got it, the Germans and Italians haven't
 
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