The Flemenstar Dilemna ?

Didn't get the horse schooled well enough in his jumping. You have to believe that atop trainer would have made a better job of it. It's the number one priority isn't it?
 
If that's the case then there would be no need to school them would there?

And why do some trainers seem to produce technically better jumpers than others? Also with hurdles surely a decent trainer would expect to get some sort of fluency. Not a lot to ask for is it
 
Im assuming that was a joke from Grassy. NH horses are taught from a young age how to jump, the shape to make etc. Its all down to the schooling at a young age. Bad habits are hard to lose...
 
Im assuming that was a joke from Grassy. NH horses are taught from a young age how to jump, the shape to make etc. Its all down to the schooling at a young age. Bad habits are hard to lose...

Not at all.

To use an example, how does one account for the way that the Aeroplane jumps (athletic, fluent) and the way Long Run jumps (crabby) if it is all down to the trainer?

Long Run was trained in France by Guillaume Macaire, and it's not like he is some uneducated bumpkin that has taught the horse bad habits. Besides, LR has been with Henderson longer than he was with Macaire, and still isn't fluent.

It couldn't be down to the jockey, could it? :whistle:
 
The dilemma here isn't the Japan race for me. It's what do you do when you have a very good horse with a two bob trainer? Danoli scenario etc.

Can be argued that you shouldn't be with that trainer in first place but then again not everyone will have the pockets deep enough for a Mullins or Nichols

Same could be said with Colm Murphy and Brave Inca. It's down to the right horse with the right trainer. Nicholls has gotten a tune out of Tidal Bay because he figured out his head and how to train him. I recall Nicholls giving one away a few years back and it came out and won a decent race. Colm got Aladdins Cave from Gordon Elliott and won a heap of races with him. I don't think any of us know whether a horse would improve or not for a change of stable. I also think that from an owners perspective, I'd prefer to have the best horse in a small yard than the third best horse in a big yard. But that is personal preference.
 
John Leadbetter got given Rubstic to train after the owner and Harry Bell fell out and won the National. I knew they guy pretty well and went along to see the horse and quite frankly a sh1t hole would describe the place by Seven Barrows standards. John was a helluva nice guy but a trainer? It seemed to me it was more like a hobby to him than a job yet he won the worlds greatest steeplechase.

No one in their right mind would say Ginger was a great trainer but look what he achieved or at least what Rd Rum did.

Norman Dalgetty was a permit holder from the borders and landed some massive touches in his time and as far as I remember never had anymore than 2 horses under his care at any time.

Ronnie Postlewaite/Foster Norton Nr Malton only needed to say boo when one of his wives horses was on a going day and he'd have the bookies running for the hills. Very very seldom did he get it wrong.

There's such a mixture of trainers out there to say so and so is the best is kind of pie in the sky.

Nicky and PN are probably not that different/better "Trainers" than someone like Richard Guest who buys horses for 500 quid and wins races with them. The guy could win a race with a mule and just about has done

Where they excel is the are brilliant businessmen have a good way with people and have built up a huge backing. It is all part and parcel of the job but lb for lb they're probaly not better or even as good at some at the actual training of a horse.

A lot depend on who they can afford to employ as well. The more money you have the better the staff you can mply Anyone who can remember Roger Fisher will tell you how he was praised to the high heavens as a trainer. The man behind the scenes that made him a star was Dudley Moffat and without him he'd never have made it off the ground.

Personally where Tiday Bay is concerned I'd put a lot of it down to a change of scenery and jockeys. I doubt if the horse has actually changed much he just runs better for Ruby but he'd still take the p!ss if he could get away with it. I don't think PN has done anything magical and the old kinks are still there but Jacobs and even more so Ruby have got fantastic hands and more brains than Tidal Bay.....The ability has always been there and when he won his last race Ruby kidded him on all the way round and it was him that turned certain defeat into victory and deserves most of the credit imo

As far as Flemenstar is concerned he's won so many races now it's hard to say Casey is totally useless but overall his record is pretty poor. Mark Chapman in an interview dug through the Archives and brought up Jack the Bus and Cool Touch and made out he had done wondrous things with them..I think they won about 9 races from 100 starts plus between them. The guy is like 75 to 80 year old now and fair play to him but while I would feel bad about taking the horse away and on reflection probably wouldn't but then I wouldn't have put a horse with him in the first place.

He's apparently very popular so I wouldn't like to be the guy who took the horse away from him.
 
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Tidal Bay is not the only horse to improve since leaving Howard Johnson, most of them have.
 
Jumping ability is largely down to the horse than the trainer, surely?

A tricky one this, can't be a coincidence that the Hen has has some of the best jumpers of a fence in recent times. Best Mate and Impek would both probably be in my top 5.

Some are simply just clumsy buggers
 
Dj is right and that was the example i was going to use. It comes down not to singular examples but an overall profile. But its not tricky. Its obvious
 
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Can anyone really truely say that if they had the raw material of kauto say they would bé happier for it to bé in some two bob yard with a trainer who seems to think hes a "character" and whos biggest win was in a seller than with one of, if not the the best trainers the game has seen ?
 
A tricky one this, can't be a coincidence that the Hen has has some of the best jumpers of a fence in recent times. Best Mate and Impek would both probably be in my top 5.

Some are simply just clumsy buggers

She also had Edredon Bleu, who was a superb jumper.

But then again, she also had Racing Demon. :cool:
 
Look at what Grey Abbey did at Howard Johnson's as a veteran after leaving Finbar Murtagh. Take a horse like Ryalux, a 150 horse for Andy Crook, would have been 170+ with a top yard. Loads of horses operating for smaller yards that would do much better if sent to a top yard imo.
 
Like human relationships, different trainers get on better with different types of horses and plenty would be better off in a different stable.

Flemenstar, however, is doing very well where he is, he jumps well, is in good health, has no fitness issues and appears to enjoy life. He is also slowly learning to settle better.

He appears to be a straightforward horse and I would be surprised if another trainer could improve him as an athlete, which leaves the question about how to campaign him. It can't be easy dealing with an opinionated owner, even for a bigger trainer (as Henry de Bromhead might attest). Any bluff a small trainer might try such as saying he must be allowed to dictate or the horse will have to leave is likely to be called.
 
There's plenty that wouldn't.

Ken Hogg trained in the Isle of Man bought a horse for 125 pounds and won 9 out of 11 in one season with him. His wins included winning the Eider Chase and beating Rubstic and Red rum at Uttoxeter before finishing 5th in the National.

Ken once said he could teach anyone in a week how to train the right horse to win a races it's not rocket science.

My friend and I had a horse that was beaten in a maiden by one of Jack Berry's. I was chatting to him after the race why his horses were running so well and his exact words "I really don't have the faintest idea I do the same thing every day and they just keep winning"

I rode out at several yards in my younger days Oliver's, Bells, Fitzy's, Gordon Richards Mick Lambert John Quinn's and Jonjo's when he was up at Skelton and really they all did much the same thing. I honestly think it's more down to placing horses, buying the right ones and business management than it is actually training.

I totally agree with what Grey is saying. Peter Casey is doing very little wrong the horse turns up spot on he just turns up spot on in the wrong race.....The owner would do well to shut his gob and let the man make the decisions. I have always believed if you employ a trainer you employ him to make the decisions and you may discuss things with him but you don't tell him he must do this....the day you feel you have to, is the day you part company and when you do you will soon realize, though you may never admit it, that you're a dick.
 
I should also say that I thought Flemenstar would get the trip and win last time but after what the jockey said about the way he should be ridden and they did the exact opposite I just wonder who's brilliant idea that was. It would seem someone is not listening to the trainer and either that someone or the trainer is not listening to the jockey........crazy team if ever there was one:lol:
 
Or maybe they did listen to the trainer?

An owner calling the shots over a trainer ultimately doesnt respect his opinion. But then again we dont really know that that was the case here do we?
 
Fo all those saying that schooloing for jumping makes no difference, whats the point of Yogi Bear or whatever his name is then?

Surely in novice races when you back some trainers horses as opposed to othersyou have a greater degree of confidence that some will be better prepared for the racing experience and the actually taking of hurdles/fences than others?

Not interested in a Ahyeswhatabout? argument because its the general take on this that matters.
 
Personally where Tiday Bay is concerned I'd put a lot of it down to a change of scenery and jockeys. I doubt if the horse has actually changed much he just runs better for Ruby

No. They have been training him in a different way.

But take point about actual training. On the one hand the devil is in the detail and would you suggest that Jessica Ennis say would be using any old joe off the street for training? Dont think so....

On the otehr hand the "genius" crap that gets trotted out about some trainers as if they have some mystical way does get a bit wearing
 
Quote from Peter Casey at the Cheltenham preview night in Galway on Monday:

"I hope Sir Des Champs win the Gold Cup. If he does we'll win the f***in thing next year. We made a bags of things with Flemenstar this year but we won't make the same mistakes next year."
 
Apparently the latest plan for Flemenstar is Aintree for the Melling Chase followed, if all goes well, by a run against Sprinter Sacre in the two miler at Punchestown.
 
Cue Card v Flemenstar 2m4f would be well worth watching but Flemenstar V Sprinter Sacre 2m would be their first step to making another bags of it as Casey's would say.

If he does we'll win the f***in thing next year. He's off his trolly he's the one who said he shouldn't be in a 3 miler just a month or 2 ago and should go for some 2 miler at the same meeting.:blink:
 
There's plenty that wouldn't.

Ken Hogg trained in the Isle of Man bought a horse for 125 pounds and won 9 out of 11 in one season with him. His wins included winning the Eider Chase and beating Rubstic and Red rum at Uttoxeter before finishing 5th in the National.

Ken once said he could teach anyone in a week how to train the right horse to win a races it's not rocket science.
Forest King if I remember correctly. A smashing horse.
 
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