The Gold Cup 2010

Not a myth, Cheltenham does demand more consistent, bigger and better jumping. The packed birch fences at Cheltenham are more of a test for a steeplechaser than anywhere (including Aintree).
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Thats a different test. But to suggest that Kempton is somehow easier for a ordinary jumper is just plain wrong. As with the railway fences at Sandown, quick fences take some negotiating and skill
 
Well on my figures KS's second Gold Cup rating is higher than Denman's the year before. That tells me Kauto is better than Denman round Cheltenham.
 
SteveM said:
I think you have probably answered your own question Katherine. It's the best because the best contest it and the course and trip set the most exacting standard of all Grade 1 races over fences.
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All I was really asking is why three miles and two and a half furlongs is seen by some as the best way of determining the champion stayer. When I look at its roll of honour, I see it littered with horses which weren't rated champion stayer of the season.

You said in an earlier post that they might not always go faster in a Gold Cup than a King George. As a kid I remember Desert Orchid tearing around Kempton, and standing off outside the wings of his fences. Why is this less meritorious than jumping around Cheltenham?
 
I disagree with virtually everything Steve says on this matter, none more so than his assertion that that Kauto Star is not a good jumper. He is a tremendous jumper of a fence but has the ability to lose concentration at times (rarely enough!). Time and time again we have seen his jumping winning him races - as it actually did at Haydock last time imo.
 
Steve, is your point that all other form displayed in all other races doesn't count, and that the only race that matters interms of determining 'the best' is the Gold Cup?

If so, then I think it's a foolhardy stance. The Gold Cup is no guarantor of 'best performance', and it's only since the emergence of Kauto Star and Denman, that it has tended to be so.

Moscow Flyer would have been the best 'performer' in pre Kauto/Denman era, and I would contend that anyone promoting War of Attrition's Gold Cup performance as a 'better' or 'more legitimate' effort than MF's in that season's Tingle Creek Chase, to be practically certifiable.

I don't think your dismissal of Kauto Star stacks up on any level - I have to say.
 
Irish Stamp said:
It depends if you own a 2 miler or a 3 miler Steve. I doubt that the owner of Viking Flagship or Moscow Flyer was ever tempted to run the horse in the Gold Cup.
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I'm not saying other races don't have their place. But this thread is about the Gold Cup.
 
clivex said:
Thats a different test. But to suggest that Kempton is somehow easier for a ordinary jumper is just plain wrong. As with the railway fences at Sandown, quick fences take some negotiating and skill
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Yes it is a different sort of test. Denman and Kauto are different sort of horses. In the Gold Cup Denman (I suggest) is the better one.
 
Steve, you also suggested that Denman would "jump Kauto bandy".

Is that something you still stand by, and on what basis do you make that assertion, given it's clear that KS has managed to successfully negotiate fences at much faster speeds than Denman has ever been asked to?
 
Take a look at the last 20 years or so and I would suggest that the KGV winner has more reliably been a top horse than the GC

Also, no stats for this, but would suggest that a few more KGV's have been won or lost by the actual jumping in the final straight than GC's. Barton Bank springs to mind of course
 
Katharine said:
All I was really asking is why three miles and two and a half furlongs is seen by some as the best way of determining the champion stayer. When I look at its roll of honour, I see it littered with horses which weren't rated champion stayer of the season.

You said in an earlier post that they might not always go faster in a Gold Cup than a King George. As a kid I remember Desert Orchid tearing around Kempton, and standing off outside the wings of his fences. Why is this less meritorious than jumping around Cheltenham?
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It takes different sorts of horses to win different types of races. Denman is particularly well suited to the Gold Cup, which is the subject of this thread.
 
Grasshopper said:
Steve, is your point that all other form displayed in all other races doesn't count, and that the only race that matters interms of determining 'the best' is the Gold Cup?

If so, then I think it's a foolhardy stance. The Gold Cup is no guarantor of 'best performance', and it's only since the emergence of Kauto Star and Denman, that it has tended to be so.

Moscow Flyer would have been the best 'performer' in pre Kauto/Denman era, and I would contend that anyone promoting War of Attrition's Gold Cup performance as a 'better' or 'more legitimate' effort than MF's in that season's Tingle Creek Chase, to be practically certifiable.

I don't think your dismissal of Kauto Star stacks up on any level - I have to say.
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Of course not. I am not dismissing Kauto. He is one of my favourite and one of the best NH horses I have had the privilege to see. What I am saying is that he is no match for Denman in the Gold Cup assuming both give their running.
 
SteveM said:
They have done a great job in getting Kauto to jump. He was never a natural jumper of a fence. This is not being disrespectful (as if that mattered) it's saying that they are different types of horses. Denman is a more natural and much better jumper of a fence.
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The assertion that Kauto isn't a natural jumper is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard said about racing...
 
Galileo said:
I disagree with virtually everything Steve says on this matter, none more so than his assertion that that Kauto Star is not a good jumper. He is a tremendous jumper of a fence but has the ability to lose concentration at times (rarely enough!). Time and time again we have seen his jumping winning him races - as it actually did at Haydock last time imo.
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I actually said what a good job they had done in getting Kauto to jump well. Kauto, however, is not a natural jumper of a fence whereas Denman is.
 
SteveM said:
Not as well suited as Denman by a long way. Desert Orchid was another not suited to Cheltenham but still managed to win because like Kauto he was so good.
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On what basis can you say that though?

Kauto's form in winning the race last year was at least as good (better in my opinion) as Denman's was when he won his Gold Cup. How can it possibly be a "long way" in Denman's favour? There is no evidence to suggest that, unless you have significantly under-rated KS's performance.

I'm sorry, but it's a pretty flimsy straw-man you're building, Steve.
 
clivex said:
That was down to the course being left handed, which he hated. Nothing to do with his jumping, which was superb
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The point I'm making is that certain horses are better on certain tracks. It's where the saying "horses for courses" comes from.
 
Grasshopper said:
On what basis can you say that though?

Kauto's form in winning the race last year was at least as good (better in my opinion) as Denman's was when he won his Gold Cup. How can it possibly be a "long way" in Denman's favour? There is no evidence to suggest that, unless you have significantly under-rated KS's performance.

I'm sorry, but it's a pretty flimsy straw-man you're building, Steve.
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On the basis of the types of horse they are. If you think differently good luck to you.
 
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BennyB said:
The assertion that Kauto isn't a natural jumper is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard said about racing...
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It's one that the trainer shares with me. They have done a fantastic job in teaching him to jump. Denman on the other hand was in his element when taking to fences. He 'stags' his fences and makes an altogether different shapr in the air to Kauto, and is better suited to the demands of Cheltenham.
 
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Miller is wrong.

Miller loves an argument.

He will be posting on this thread when others have cried enough; he is as dour a stayer as Kauto Star.

And he will clear obstacles to his argument as deftly as Kauto Star (who is not a natural jumper if you listen to Miller) cleared the railway fences in his two Tingle Creeks.
 
Steve, I seem to remember Luke Harvey reporting, at Exeter before Denman's chasing debut, that his schooling hadn't been that impressive.

That debut didn't go that smoothly with him making a mistake and hanging approaching the last.

He has obviously improved his lepping since but it wasn't that brilliant to start with.
 
SteveM said:
On the basis of the types of horse they are. If you think differently good luck to you.
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Would you not be better basing it on the level of performance they can achieve in the race, rather than on any pre-conceived notions you have about physique?

If you genuinely think that KS's form in the last Gold Cup cannot compete with Denman's from the year before, then fine - you are entitled to your view.

If you think Denman is capable of a much better rating than KS achieved in March, that is also fine.

But whatever your opinion, it would be better it was based on proven ability, rather than some of the nebulous concepts put up so far.

You need a smaller shovel. :D:cool:
 
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