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The Gold Cup 2010

Bar the Bull said:
Miller is wrong.

Miller loves an argument.

He will be posting on this thread when others have cried enough; he is as dour a stayer as Kauto Star.

And he will clear obstacles to his argument as deftly as Kauto Star (who is not a natural jumper if you listen to Miller) cleared the railway fences in his two Tingle Creeks.
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:) The beauty of it is the Gold Cup result itself will likely prove the most instructive as to who is right and who is wrong. I expect Denman to jump them inside out in that.
 
Grasshopper said:
Would you not be better basing it on the level of performance they can achieve in the race, rather than on any pre-conceived notions you have about physique?

If you genuinely think that KS's form in the last Gold Cup cannot compete with Denman's from the year before, then fine - you are entitled to your view.

If you think Denman is capable of a much better rating than KS achieved in March, that is also fine.

But whatever your opinion, it would be better it was based on proven ability, rather than some of the nebulous concepts put up so far.

You need a smaller shovel. :D:cool:
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:rolleyes: I know you are quite wrong... as I believe you will yourself eventually. Horses like Denman don't come along very often. He will demonstrate his own superiority when the time comes.
 
As a jumper I think Denman is much surer jumper than Kauto ,
Kauto is faster but makes many more mistakes.
 
SteveM said:
It takes different sorts of horses to win different types of races.
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Yes, but that's not what I was questioning. My query was why the Gold Cup is regarded as the ultimate test of a staying chaser, or in your words, why it sets the most 'exacting standard'.

It's a unique test, certainly, but some have passed it and yet have failed elsewhere.

And as far as I can see, Kauto is the same horse who has won different types of races. He has won over different trips, on flat or undulating courses, right handed or left handed, on good or soft ground.

I don't see him being at a disadvantage at Cheltenham.

But if they both get there in March, and Denman wins, I will be here to say the better horse won.

Provided I'm satisfied that Kauto ran his race. :)
 
Desert Orchid said:
Well on my figures KS's second Gold Cup rating is higher than Denman's the year before. That tells me Kauto is better than Denman round Cheltenham.
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I disagree on that


Kauto in 2009 180
Denman in 2008 185P and Kauto 180 that year.
Kauto in 2007 167+
 
I can't have anything like 185 for Denman in 2008...........Neptune Collonges holds the form down. He's a lovely animal, but there is no way that he is a 178 performer.
 
Fair enough, suny, but every other scrap of form in his portfolio points to a horse who is about 170 at best.
 
Neptune Collonges was the problem for me as well in 2008. In his other four completed starts at Cheltenham, he was beaten a total of 60 lengths. I remain of the opinion that the course doesn't suit him and although he has won three Grade 1s in Ireland, I don't think the form of any of them justifies a high rating.
 
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2009
Kauto Star 188 / Denman 179+

2008
Denman 183+ / Kauto Star 178++

Don't underestimate Neptune Collonges. And I'm not convinced his injury affected him a great deal last year.
 
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Desert Orchid said:
2009
Kauto Star 188 / Denman 179+

2008
Denman 183+ / Kauto Star 178++

Don't underestimate Neptune Collonges. And I'm not convinced his injury affected him a great deal last year.
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If he wasn't feeling an injury, did he still run up to form? He was only a little further behind Denman this year, who in turn ran to a lower rating. So was NC below form this year, or was he rated a little too highly last year? Or both?
 
sunybay said:
As a jumper I think Denman is much surer jumper than Kauto ,
Kauto is faster but makes many more mistakes.
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This basically sums it up. And it is Denman's job to force those mistakes out of Kauto Star. If the ground is softer than dead that will aid him.
 
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Cheers, Bj.

Welsh National? Irish National?
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This thread has moved on quite a bit since Horner Woods' discussion, but I wouldn't be surprised if he went for a few of the better handicaps later in the season alright. Maybe even the William Hill Chase....
 
King George

Kauto Star...8/11
Imperial C...6
Madison...9
Cooldine...12
Deep Purple..14
Nacarat...14
Albertas Run..20
Barbers Shop..20
Kalahari King...25
Well Chief...25

33s Bar

At this stage I like Barbers Shop each way. Thought he was running a smasher in the Hennessy and just failed to stay. IC is a terrible price given that he doesn't go right handed.

Will Cooldine go to Kempton?
 
Don't like Barber's Shop at levels against some of these. Imperial Commander looks the obvious danger to Kauto. A couple of others with bits and pieces of chances.
 
Master Medic to run a big career-best and sneak a place now he's upped to his correct trip. His form doesn't look far behind the likes of Barber Shop to me.
 
At the start of the season the KG was the plan for Cooldine but he has had no prep so I have my doubts if he will travel now

Some big prices there, something has to finish second to Kauto :)
 
Lifetime starts:

Kauto Star 9yo - 32 races
Denman 9yo - 18 races
Our Vic 11yo - 28 races

I think KS may be on the cusp of his downgrade, in fact it might already have happened if we take the view it wasn't just the course at Haydock last time.

Of course he can run 10/12 pounds below his best and still win this but for me if he does i'll be lumping on Denman for the Gold Cup as soon as he pasts the post.
 
I think KS will win again on Boxing Day.

I honestly believe he prefers just about most courses to Haydock's new one but because he's very genuine, and top class, he still manages to get away with it, last year's blip aside, when I just thought he wasn't right in himself.
 


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