The Gold Cup 2010

Ardross said:
It is a new one on me that a double GC winner isn't suited by Cheltenham.:blink:
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Oh, he is when they have a nice little canter - but when the Tank puts it too him...it's a different story.

Actually the more I think of these two greats, the more I think Kauto Star is Roger Federer to Denman's Nadal. And when Rafa is at his best we all know who wins those matches - no matter who has the most glorious overall record.
 
Euronymous said:
Oh, he is when they have a nice little canter - but when the Tank puts it too him...it's a different story.

Actually the more I think of these two greats, the more I think Kauto Star is Roger Federer to Denman's Nadal. And when Rafa is at his best we all know who wins those matches - no matter who has the most glorious overall record.
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Nadal does it on hardcourts, grass and clay. Denman has done it only once in soft ground ground at Cheltenham with Kauto Star running below par.

As for the pace arguement, again it really is ridiculous to suggest they went any quicker in Denman's Gold Cup on the first circuit (when KS was making mistakes) then in any of Kauto's King Georges, Tingle Creeks or indeed during his faultless round of jumping in last year's Gold Cup.
 
They went a snail's pace last year - Neptune Collonges was nowhere near running the same fractions. His Tingle Creek's against second rate oppo and his King George's really are irrelevent when it comes to his chances in the Gold Cup against Denman.

Oh, and the Tank would slaughter KS at Newbury - no matter what the ground.
 
Euronymous said:
They went a snail's pace last year - Neptune Collonges was nowhere near running the same fractions. His Tingle Creek's against second rate oppo and his King George's really are irrelevent when it comes to his chances in the Gold Cup against Denman.

Oh, and the Tank would slaughter KS at Newbury - no matter what the ground.
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In last year's Gold Cup, they went as fast as they did in the first circuit of Denman's Gold Cup (when Denman did not actually lead from the flag fall).

Kauto Star was making errors as early as the first circuit...that was my point yet in last season's Gold Cup when as stages they were going just as fast KS was flawless.

As for slaughtering Kauto at Newbury....Denman was out on his legs when he beat Kauto at Cheltenham in his ideal conditions.
 
Galileo said:
Kauto Star was making errors as early as the first circuit...that was my point yet in last season's Gold Cup when as stages they were going just as fast KS was flawless.

As for slaughtering Kauto at Newbury....Denman was out on his legs when he beat Kauto at Cheltenham in his ideal conditions.
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They were small errors imo. He just couldn't cope with Denman once he got into top gear on that ground on that racecourse. I just have never bought that he was under the weather that day, if he hadn't fluffed the last he'd have been a clear second and wouldn't have been that far behind. Obviously I exaggerate a tad when I talk of ritual slaughter. But to suggest that Denman could only beat Kauto Star on soft ground at Cheltenham is wide of the mark. I believe it could be argued that KS would run below par anytime he goes left handed and they go a decent clip. I really doubt he'd have ever won a Queen Mother if they'd kept him to two miles.
 
Euronymous said:
I believe it could be argued that KS would run below par anytime he goes left handed and they go a decent clip. I really doubt he'd have ever won a Queen Mother if they'd kept him to two miles.
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It could be argued stoutly....until someone broke out a video of last season's Gold Cup.
 
But his rivals never put him under pressure last year. And that's why I think the Federer comparison is so apt. If he gets an easy ride his class just overcomes everything. He needs to know he's been in a race.
 
Mullins pouring alot of cold water on the prospects of Cooldine at the prices this weekend based on his belief he will be better again for the run. Would like to see him win impressively for antepost purposes on the Gold Cup but he is a horse I have long had a soft spot for.

Looks a competitive race.
 
Joncol is my selection, though it is tainted by the fact that he would push my syndicate to the front of the TTF if he wins (also have Punchestowns going for us tomorrow and Dunguib on Sunday).

Positive waves. :ninja:
 
The idea that Ks was anywhere near his best in the 2008 GC is absurd - a head better than Neptune Collonges give me strength.

I think that there is a strong chance that the 2008 GC was DEnman's 1963 Hennessy.
 
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For all Sam Thomas's faults he did a great job judging the pace in Denman's Gold Cup. He went just fast enough without going too hard - it was a fine line judging on how tired the horse finished up the hill. McCoy will be the same tricky position of wanting to get the horse into his rhythm without setting it up for others such as Kauto.
 
Galileo said:
For all Sam Thomas's faults he did a great job judging the pace in Denman's Gold Cup. He went just fast enough without going too hard - it was a fine line judging on how tired the horse finished up the hill. McCoy will be the same tricky position of wanting to get the horse into his rhythm without setting it up for others such as Kauto.
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The worry is that AP isn't exactly a judge of pace - he was pretty awful on Lough Derg today, but otherwise he and Denman seem a decent match.
 
Ardross said:
The idea that Ks was anywhere near his best in the 2008 GC is absurd - a head better than Neptune Collonges give me strength.
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While i agree, there's no way 2009 was Denman's true running and to get as close as he did last year amazed me. I think they're so closely matched that it will come to ground and jockey judgement of pace.
 
hezz said:
While i agree, there's no way 2009 was Denman's true running and to get as close as he did last year amazed me. I think they're so closely matched that it will come to ground and jockey judgement of pace.
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They are closely matched theoretically. In practice Cheltenham will separate them. Denman is a better horse at Cheltenham than Kauto is on his best day. You are right Denman was a shadow of his self in the 2009 Gold Cup (and for all of last season), but Kauto ran up to his best in 2008 and was hammered. I don't see what Kauto will be able to do to beat Denman at Cheltenham. Denman must surely be clear favourite to win. Perhaps the penny will drop after the Aon.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I just don't get the hype surrounding Joncol. What's it ever done?
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He's won the Irish Hennessy.:p Decent performance. He jumps very well, a bit deliberate for some tastes but very safe. He should probably go for the RyanAir now, I'd quite fancy him in that. Cooldine may not be quite back to his best of course. Can't see either of these troubling the Gold Cup protagonists though.
 
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SteveM said:
They are closely matched theoretically. In practice Cheltenham will separate them. Denman is a better horse at Cheltenham than Kauto is on his best day. You are right Denman was a shadow of his self in the 2009 Gold Cup (and for all of last season), but Kauto ran up to his best in 2008 and was hammered. I don't see what Kauto will be able to do to beat Denman at Cheltenham. Denman must surely be clear favourite to win. Perhaps the penny will drop after the Aon.
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he is 9-4 for as much as you like. Please dont give a smug reply that your on at 9-1.
 
Why will the Aon make any difference? Likely to be a three runner affair and we will learn nothing.

Actually theoretically they are not that closely matched after KS romp at Kempton.

I too do not think Denman was at his best last year, much in the same way Kauto Star was not at his best the previous year. I find it hard to believe anyone can look at the two races objectively and say otherwise.
 
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