The Gold Cup 2010
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I see Joncol won at the weekend David... We are all right and wrong about things all of the time. I'm simply stating what I believe is so... and anyway was Fame & Glory such a bad animal?
You say I'm labouring a point and yet if people fail to explain their position you are the first to criticise.
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...I believe you will be plentifully rewarded suny.
...I could NC was very underrated horse and an excellent horse for course and distance.
Grasshopper
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He must have been below par when beaten 13L by Kauto Star in the 2007 Gold Cup.
Even good horses are entitled to be beaten by Kauto Star. Denman on the other hand is something more than a good horse.
It will be a great race. Perhaps the best we've seen. I can't see why people are getting so upset. The best horse will likely win this time with both in great heart. I believe (and am very sure) that horse will be Denman. Others of you believe otherwise. The result should help to clarify.
Is there one other run where NC even nearly approaches the level of form shown by Kauto Star? I don't think so, showing just how much KS underperformed that day.
I can't believe the bookies think there is more chance of Kauto Star not winning that winning. He should be odds on, and I think people will be kicking themselves after the Gold Cup wondering how they could leave the best horse of the last 40 years unbacked above evens.
Good luck to you. I believe Denman is a better horse than Kauto at Cheltenham. If I'm kicking myself after the race at least I'll have seen a race worth kicking myself about.
Grasshopper
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I don't think anyone is getting upset, Steve, but if your argument has an apparent gaping hole in it, we're entitled to point it out, no?
We're just trying to save you from yourself, that's all.
I don't think anyone is getting upset, Steve, but if your argument has an apparent gaping hole in it, we're entitled to point it out, no?
We're just trying to save you from yourself, that's all.
Thanks for the concern Grassy. Your altruism overwhelms me. I dare say it won't finish me off though. Racing as they say "is about losing". The knack is to do it less often than the general community.Can you be sure that that "gaping hole" you speak of is not a blind spot in your own field of vision?
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Euronymous
Senior Jockey
No. Timeform had Kauto Star on 184+ up until this season. They now have him on 191+
Denman is rated 183 - and is obviously capable of running to that at Cheltenham as well as Newbury. I very much doubt whether anyone thinks KS can run to within half a stone of his Kempton best at headquarters.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
God knows. For some reason Timeform don't rate the individual races in their results section like they do for their flat annuals.
Grasshopper
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Cheers anyway.
I'd be surprised if they didn't have Kauto's Gold Cup (won relatively easily) higher than Denman's Gold Cup (horse finished legless), thereby dispelling the myth of who is the better animal around Cheltenham!
I think they came out about the same. I know who I was more impressed with though.
Grasshopper
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Pretty sure, yes.
In my opinion, the beatings doled out to NC by Kauto Star in the 2007 and 2009 Gold Cups, are more representative of their respective merits than the shd between them in the 2008 Gold Cup. Your contrary position is not one I find entirely credible, that's all - not that it will necessarily stop Denman winning this time.
PS. Euro, I don't have the book to hand, but I think KS was rated 184 in the last Chasers & Hurdlers - a mark he achieved in the Gold Cup.
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NC isn't the issue. It was Denman who jumped Kauto bandy in 2008 and demoralised Kauto, probably allowing NC to get a bit closer than he should. Don't forget that NC was fancied to be in the form of his life in March 2008.
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Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Of course he could have gone round again, he wasn't put under any pressure. This year will be different.
Grasshopper
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Kauto jumped himself bandy about a mile before Denman took it up. Far from being demoralised, he ran a terrific race to be beaten only 7L, considering how poorly he jumped and travelled.
Anyway, Neptune is the issue for Denman supporters because his proximity holds down the form of the 2008 Gold Cup - something that appears to be conveniently forgotten, in favour of promoting gingerbread-house theories about Kauto being "jumped bandy" and "demoralised".
Kauto jumped himself bandy about a mile before Denman took it up. Far from being demoralised, he ran a terrific race to be beaten only 7L, considering how poorly he jumped and travelled.
Anyway, Neptune is the issue for Denman supporters because his proximity holds down the form of the 2008 Gold Cup - something that appears to be conveniently forgotten, in favour of promoting gingerbread-house theories about Kauto being "jumped bandy" and "demoralised".
It is only about these two. Not a horse that will not be part of the equation this time. Denman just didn't allow Kauto to run his race in 2008. The fact that Kauto also made mistakes on top of that is because he is not as natural at Cheltenham as Denman. Calling this a "ginger bread theory" is seeing only what you want to imo.
The beauty of it is that this year's race will hopefully make all clear, one way or the other.
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It is only about these two. Not a horse that will not be part of the equation this time. Denman just didn't allow Kauto to run his race in 2008. The fact that Kauto also made mistakes on top of that is because he is not as natural at Cheltenham as Denman. Calling this a "ginger bread theory" is seeing only what you want to imo.
He was a natural at Cheltenham last season (and indeed in his first Gold Cup success).
Like Grassy has said, the horse was making mistakes LONG before Denman took the lead in his Gold Cup and he did remarkably well to finish so close. At the top of the hill I thought he would finish down the field.