The Gold Cup 2010

Shadow Leader said:
Turtle Island - you haven't answered my question as to why you think it is so obvious that Denman is 'past it' - he clearly isn't. His previous fall at Aintree is wholly irrelevant since it was on a different course to the National one anyway! His age too is irrelevant - Christ alive, 18 year olds regularly compete at Badminton which makes Aintree look like the Shetland Pony Grand National. Talk of an eleven year old being too long in the tooth to run in the National (even first time) is ridiculous.
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I said he is "past his best", not past it. I believe he has more runs in him and am not requesting retirement. Somebody above made a comment about once a year races and maybe that is what will happen. I don't know. And I do believe his age is relevant and that it is a big ask for a horse to run at Aintree, in the National, for the first time aged 11. Horses are trained with specific goals in mind over their racing careers. I am not aware that the National has ever been on the agenda for Denman? I know the course is not as arduous as in previous years and that Denman is a strong galloper and, usually, a sound jumper but I am concerned at the motive for sending him there. I also find it interesting that Pail Nicholls has made no comment (that I've seen) regarding Denman going to the National?
This is my view. If, in time, I am proved wrong I will be the first to admit it but until then I will query this prospect.
 
how can Denman be past his best when he has just run probably one of his best ever races..if not the best ..considering how disadvantaged he was by pace...totally confused by that thinking tbh
 
Turtle's fan said:
Horses are trained with specific goals in mind over their racing careers. I am not aware that the National has ever been on the agenda for Denman? I know the course is not as arduous as in previous years and that Denman is a strong galloper and, usually, a sound jumper but I am concerned at the motive for sending him there..
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Findlay first mentioned the National as a future objective for the horse after his first Hennessy win.
 
Euronymous said:
Findlay first mentioned the National as a future objective for the horse after his first Hennessy win.
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One of a number of possible targets that have been mentioned in the past. I do hope they go for the National - would add something extra to the field for sure to see a horse that good in the big race :)
 
Denman was entered in the National last year with the race having been mentioned as a realistic possible straight after his Gold Cup win, with the possibility of him running in the National having been mooted several times from his first Hennessy win, as Euronymous says. Not that it makes a lot of difference whether or not is has been a target for him in the past anyway - why should that be a negative for him running in the race? There is no reason whatsoever why Denman shouldn't run in the National, in fact he looks made for the race. I can't wait to see him in it, like a lot of other people.
 
All I can say is thank God for Songs, Truds, Shads, Krizon and anyone else with the same view with regards to Ruby riding KS back in. I feel SO strongly about it and said so elsewhere but I have been banging my head against a brick wall with some of the replies I got.
Praise be for sensible women! :whistle:
 
davidjohnson said:
So am I right in thinking that Ruby, who has ridden the horse more than anyone else on the track thought he was sound enough to be ridden back, a view that was endorsed after inspection by the on-course vet, and approved by the stewards?
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He was cantering back less than 5 minutees after he fell, a very thorough examination by the vet....NOT.... he probably ade sure he still had for legs and could walk in a straight line. If Ruby really has to ride back to save his precious legs then at least walk him back, not canter.
 
I make no excuses for being a fan of Ruby's, love the way he rides, usually. But agree here it was a silly thing to do. I was still in shock over the fall and did not clock it when I saw them trot by, was just so happy to see Kauto still had a neck and 4 legs. But more shocked now that Ruby would do something so daft, and in front of a massive crowd, and on tv, obviously thinks he is right! I had thought he was smarter than that, and more concerned. Disappointing behaving like a big kid.
 
Also saying, if I caught the discussion at the right moment, that KAUTO was 'a bit sore' the next day, but is all right now. I daresay they've had him under the heat lamps and in the spa, so I might be all right, too!
 
Timeform have given Imperial Commander a rating of 184. A pound higher than Denman, still half a stone shy of Kauto's best.
 
Judging from Nicholls' comments today, I imagine he's rather ruing the fact he hasn't got the option of running him this year.
 
Bit late here. I'll add a quick, grumbling 'Bugger' re Kauto's fall. I felt the same as I did when Moscow got rid of Geraghty in '04.

IC is a proper Cheltenham horse, though. I do love my staying chasers and he was a joy to watch on Friday.

Will he follow the same route next season? Haydock, maybe Leopardstown instead of Kempton, and then Cheltenham.

Is it too much to hope that they'll consider the Hennessy?
 
I would not be surprised if they decided to have a go at the Grande Steeple Chase de Auteil (Or whatever it's called) 3m5f on soft ground sounds ideal for Denman and it would give him a nice break as well... They have mentioned it in the past and Aintree and Punchestown are unlikely given What a Friend is likely to run at Aintree and probably Punchestown plus the French pot is massive.
 
Aragorn said:
I would not be surprised if they decided to have a go at the Grande Steeple Chase de Auteil (Or whatever it's called) 3m5f on soft ground sounds ideal for Denman and it would give him a nice break as well... They have mentioned it in the past and Aintree and Punchestown are unlikely given What a Friend is likely to run at Aintree and probably Punchestown plus the French pot is massive.
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I'd love to see that, especially as I'm planning to go over to Auteuil for the first time this year.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Timeform have given Imperial Commander a rating of 184. A pound higher than Denman, still half a stone shy of Kauto's best.
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184 is till a massive rating though..only a few seasons ago we didn't see any ratings this high...basically Denman would have won an average GC from the mid 90's to mid 00's...but he is finished apparently :blink:
 
Back from the front bloodied but unbowed. The hard won gains of the first three days took a major hit from the failure of Tell Massini and Denman on the final day.

No complaints though. Backed Denman oncourse at 5/1 each-way so actually made money on that, although off course (for an average of around 11/2) it was all on to win.

Denman gave all he had on the day but was beaten by a super fit horse running the race of its life (as is the nature of these things). Indeed Imperial Commander’s RPR of 182 is – in terms of Gold Cup performances – the third best in the past 20 years, after Denman’s 184 and Kauto’s 185. No disgrace being beaten by a horse that good.

Six winners all week (Primarily Binocular and Big Bucks) and a good number of placed horses (mostly bet for a place on course). Dunguib and Punchestowns were big losers for me, but had backed up the latter with Weapon’s Amnesty.

Not had time to read through the threads yet but hope no one met with utter disaster and relieved that Kauto lives to fight another day.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Official Ratings:

Imperial Commander: 174

Denman: 182 beaten 7 lengths

Mon Mome: 148 beaten 30 lengths

Carruthers: 155 beaten 30 lengths

Cooldine: 160 beaten 31 lengths

Calgary Bay: 153 beaten 39 lengths

My Will: 150 beaten 51 lengths

Cerium: 133 beaten 61 lengths


That might suggest that Mon Mome is going to hold the form down (relatively!), but it's worth nothing that he started the season in the Hennessy off 161, and was dropped to 148 after a couple of heavy ground defeats at Haydock.
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Imperial Commander's new OR: 185

"I've based the race through Carruthers who is very consistent on 155 and Imperial Commander beat him 30 lengths. On time Imperial Commander comes out a nearly 50lb better horse than the Foxhunter winner Baby Run who went in on 135. It fits quite neatly."
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'I've based the race through Carruthers who is very consistent at 155'

Err, he will be as consistent as you want him to be if you keep rating the race through him.

Not that I necessarily disagree with the rating. Imperial Commander has shown more than enough to suggest he's 180+ chaser, he could have been given more credit for the Haydock run than he was at the time.
 
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davidjohnson said:
Imperial Commander has shown more than enough to suggest he's 180+ chaser, he could have been given more credit for the Haydock run than he was at the time.
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Very true. If the official handicapper had rated the Haydock race through Kauto (OR 186) and Halcon Genelardais (OR 161, beaten 25 lengths), he would have had Imperial Commander on 185 or 186.

So the question is not just "will Imperial Commander reproduce this kind of rating?", but "has he done it before?".
 
In the cold light of day, it does need to be said that when Kauto star twice faced decent fields (I wouldn't count last year as Denman, his closest challenger, was ill and tenderly ridden) in the Gold Cup, he really, really struggled.
 
I wouldn't have said this year's field was better than last year's. On the contrary.

KS made a bad mistake this time. It happens. I don't think it was because he was struggling. He seemed to be travelling fine before that, as he should have been since they just lobbed around the first circuit. He's never completely erased the tendency to throw in a howler. That's just him. Clumsy, indecisive, whichever you prefer.
 
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Hamm said:
In the cold light of day, it does need to be said that when Kauto star twice faced decent fields (I wouldn't count last year as Denman, his closest challenger, was ill and tenderly ridden) in the Gold Cup, he really, really struggled.
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For me it is a mark of how great Kauto Star is that he was able to win two Gold Cups. Imperial Call and Denman are naturals round Cheltenham, Kauto is not. We should not be surprised that his jumping show cracks when he comes under pressure here. They have spent a lot of time getting his jumping right, but he is able to show off his strengths more impressively at Kempton than here.
 
His jumping has been flaky when he hasn't been under pressure. He was jumping fine until the mistake. I can't remember which but either the fence before or the one prior to that, he took off a full stride away from the fence and landed running. Personally I thought Walsh was harrying him into the fence where he fell and he should have left Kauto alone to work it out for himself. He seemed to still be going okay at that point. Huge shame he wasn't invovled at the finish.
 
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