The Gold Cup 2010

Desert Orchid said:
I was watching the race with mother-in-law. I said before Kauto's first mistake that the pace was too slow and they were playing into the hands of Imperial Commander, which I couldn't understand. I said Kauto should be going much better than he is but maybe that was my being nervous for him. I'm not convinced the big mistake in the first circuit counted for as much as the media are suggesting. Plenty of horses make bad mistakes early and still win big races. I wanted to see Cooldine get the same positive ride he got last year. He didn't and consequently didn't run to form either.

My lasting impression of the race is that of an unsatisfactory one. Neither Denman nor Cooldine got the aggressive rides they seem so suited by. Everything fell brilliantly for Imperial commander on the day but I'd love to see Kauto back next year to put him in his place.

As for the time compared with the Foxhunters, IC works out only 37lbs faster than Baby Run, which would put the former into the low 170s. Baby Run reportedly ran the first circuit six seconds faster, which just shows up how badly wrong they got the tactics in the Gold Cup.

It will be very interesting to see Denman in the National. Especially if they can manufacture a mark of around 170 for him.
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6 seconds faster for first circuit shows just how dodgy a literal reading of the GC form would be..there is no way that Denman was suited by that..and so he has actually run a very good race against apace scenario the exact opposite of what he wanted.

talk of retirement is bonkers and shows a total lack of understanding of how yesterdays race panned out...people reading races just on how many lengths there were between finishers are only seeing a small part of the actual result of a race.

i say that not as a big supporter of Denman..i don't have any allegiance tbh..but he has run a great race here.
 
Eswarah said:
One falls and the other loses and now they are worthy of retirement? Please.
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Calls for Denman's retirement are ridiculous, even though they're the same age Kauto had eleven runs under his belt before Denman had run under rules.

Like Moscow Flyer the latter didn't run until he was 5. But as a precocious french bred I can't see KS being a force as an 11yo and I think connections should aim to go out on a mega high at Kempton.
 
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I second that, go for one last big King George before retiring him. Letting him retire on this note, the fall, will let all the idiots who knock him have to much pleasure.
 
So, next year:

Imperial Commander..will be 10
Somersby
Punchestowns
Weapons Amnesty
Cooldine
Big Bucks???

I hope the latter runs, i've already backed Zaynar for the World Hurdle in the hope he does.
 
Cooldine is the type of horse to thrive for that run and come back and put a big showing in at Punchestown. Certain he did not run his race yesterday so certainly in the melting pot for next year.
 
I cannot understand why they should run Big Buck's - he is a much better hurdler than he was a chaser and I cannot see any reason why he should suddenly get much better over fences - he doesn't jump them very well .

As for KS this horse is quite capable of rewriting the record books - three months ago he put up the performance of his career. Had he not made that mistake I suspect he would have won yesterday - it was utterly juddering and the fact he was not able to recover his pitch even on the first circuit told the whole story very early on .
 
EC1 said:
6 seconds faster for first circuit shows just how dodgy a literal reading of the GC form would be...
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That's what I meant.

The chap who told me to back Master Oates when it was still 40/1 and whose recent record is pretty hot* was on the phone last night to tell me to start backing Somersby for next year's Gold Cup. He isn't always right and he doesn't really study the form as such but he has a real nose for some things.

*I might not have backed Albertas Run (even though I had it clear top on old ratings) if he hadn't phoned me several weeks ago to tell me he'd just taken 33/1 so I followed him in. He gave me Cooldine for the RSA last year when it was still 33/1 (I ignored him :blink:). He was on Imperial Commander at 20/1. He was on Somersby e/w for the Arkle at 20s or 25s. And I think he had two or three other winners each day this week. This is the same guy who told me Comply Or Die would win the Grand National 18 months in advance. Like I say, he doesn't read the form book and he isn't privy to information, he just gets a real feel for what's going on. And he only bets peanuts!!! He was high as a kite last night because he had a fiver each-way on those two big winners! I think he cleared over £500 on the meeting. To balance things up, he took my advice from the night before and backed Pigeon Island :p
 
I was impressed with IC yesterday, I underestimated him at his favourite course. That said I agree with those who thought it was a strangely run race. A bit more pace might have helped Kauto's jumping, as he's best when he doesn't have time to think about his obstacles. It was a shocking mistake, he wasn't going to win after that, but he was still scrapping away. That's how good he is. IC wasn't sighted after his mistakes in the KG.

Next season, I hope they run KS at Down Royal rather than Haydock, and I see no reason as yet why he can't run well at Kempton once again.
 
Desert Orchid said:
The chap who told me to back Master Oates when it was still 40/1 and whose recent record is pretty hot* was on the phone last night to tell me to start backing Somersby for next year's Gold Cup. He isn't always right and he doesn't really study the form as such but he has a real nose for some things.
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I'm not saying your friend is wrong but Somersby is already priced up pretty short for next year's Gold Cup at 14s and 16s generally with a top price of 20s at Chandlers. That's very short for a horse with real stamina doubts - his only attempt beyond the minimum trip was disappointing, to say the least - for all that he has a bright future. To be fair, he shaped on Tuesday like a horse who would stay further in due course. He's the sort you'd be interested in at 33s but not at current odds.
 
Songsheet said:
What rubbish - if he'd held onto the horse's reins and walked him back quietly, then that would have been the safest course of action to prevent the horse from damaging hinself further.
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I think you've missed the point I was trying to make. The point was that better he held onto the horse rather than the horse running loose. I didn't condone Ruby for getting back in the plate which was probably NOT the most sensible thing to do.
 
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gus said:
I'm not saying your friend is wrong but Somersby is already priced up pretty short for next year's Gold Cup at 14s and 16s generally with a top price of 20s at Chandlers. That's very short for a horse with real stamina doubts - his only attempt beyond the minimum trip was disappointing, to say the least - for all that he has a bright future. To be fair, he shaped on Tuesday like a horse who would stay further in due course. He's the sort you'd be interested in at 33s but not at current odds.
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That sounds fair enough, Gus. To be fair to him, we didn't discuss odds. I think he might have been under the misapprehension that Somersby was around the 33/1-40/1 mark.
 
BlazingWalker said:
I think you've missed the point I was trying to make. The point was that better he held onto the horse rather than the horse running loose. I didn't condone Ruby for getting back in the plate which was probably NOT the most sensible thing to do.
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No, I don't think I did misunderstand as your exact quote was 'He could have done a lot more damage to himself had he run loose than Ruby popping back in the plate and cantering back.'

You weren't just referring to Ruby catching hold of the horse, which would have been commendable had it been all he did - you clearly added that he did less harm by riding him back than had the horse been running loose, confirmed by your use of the term 'popping', inferring there was nothing serious about the action.

I agree the horse may have damaged himself running loose but I doubt it - we're talking a seasoned racehorse of 10 years of age, not a loopy 2yo and one who knows where the racecourse stables/exit from course is after all these years - but in fact the horse was so shaken that he didn't attempt to clear off, which was why Ruby was able to hold on to him, rather implying the horse was pretty shaken by his heavy fall.

I haven't yet come across one person who actually works with horses who is anything other than truly amazed that Ruby remounted the horse after such a crashing fall (especially considering Ruby's 'previous' where remounting is concerned) and where you can clearly see the horse bent his neck when meeting the ground. I believe some complaints were officially registered with the Stewards too.
 
They certainly were - and one stipe who was spoken to said that although they disapproved of what he had done their hands were tied as, per the rules, the decision was in the hands of the vet and they could do nothing to intervene nor punish Walsh afterwards. Had I been Nicholls (or Skelton even!) I'd have kicked Ruby into next week for that manouevre. I'd also like to add that there were several roars of displeasure in the pub (one of them mine!!) when Ruby cantered him back - several of those roars coming from jockeys, ex jockeys and staff from Henderson's.

Turtle Island - you haven't answered my question as to why you think it is so obvious that Denman is 'past it' - he clearly isn't. His previous fall at Aintree is wholly irrelevant since it was on a different course to the National one anyway! His age too is irrelevant - Christ alive, 18 year olds regularly compete at Badminton which makes Aintree look like the Shetland Pony Grand National. Talk of an eleven year old being too long in the tooth to run in the National (even first time) is ridiculous.
 
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I've adored Denman since seeing him win a novice hurdle at Wincanton but I'd love to see him in the National. He generally jumps well, he's built to carry the weight and he's capable of putting up a great performance in it. There are some ridiculous comments on the RP site about him going for the race but what's new there?!
 
I'd love to see Denny go for the GN. I can't think of one reason for him not to take a tilt at it.

Shadow - in the pub? I thought you'd be frantically rushing round delivering the latest SPs to all and sundry! (Thinks: another one busted. What with 'X' filing his reports from his sofa while pretending to be on course... !)
 
So am I right in thinking that Ruby, who has ridden the horse more than anyone else on the track thought he was sound enough to be ridden back, a view that was endorsed after inspection by the on-course vet, and approved by the stewards?
 
This will be the same Ruby who thought he was ok to jump back on and jump the last to finish at Exeter as well, where he sustained a fractured leg. NO jockey, trainer or vet can possibly tell you any horse is fine to jump on and canter within minutes of any fall, nevermind such a horrendous one which looked like a neck breaker. Adrenaline is a powerful drug.

Besides which no, the stewards didn't approve - at least a well-known stipe and former NH jockey voiced his disapproval - but stated that they had no powers to do anything about the situation as the decision rested solely with the vet (as I have already said just a few posts up).
 
I don't care if the Right Hand of God jumped on the horse - my views support Songsheet and Shadow entirely. Just look at that fall - it's a miracle KS wasn't killed on the spot, and he was damn, damn lucky to get away with his neck twist being fairly soft and not with his body weight behind it (cue comparison with CITIZEN VIC). He rolls over fully, twice, at speed. They are NOT bloody machines! You can prang your F1 car and still twirl round the track - it doesn't matter, it doesn't feel anything and if something's broken, a spare part can be found. Your pc can crash and you might need a new hard drive - but it doesn't always mean it's got to be trashed. Horses are not 'commodities' and KS demanded to be treated with a great deal more respect than someone feeling the need to ride him back to 'show he's okay'. If he'd begun any internal bleeding, that would've finished him off sharpish. The other point is the ridiculous message that now sends out to any young riders, who look to Ruby as a role model. Hey, if even the great KAUTO STAR can be sent flying headlong and be cantered back, then why not every horse who falls? As long as they're not actually raced, no problem. Hoist yourself on, never mind that the vet doesn't know the horse has a ruptured kidney - just look good coming back on board, and not like those wusses who carefully lead their horses back.

If the rule isn't in place that no fallen horse is remounted, it damn well should be.
 
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