The Road To The 2012 Champion Hurdle

Grasshopper said:
WTF are you slavering about now?

Oscar Whisky, Thousand Stars, Overturn and Binocular - all of whom were roundly cuffed by an unextended HF in the spring - have all won races at G1 level this season.

Go and have a lie down somewhere, ffs.
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You are becoming a bit of a dick. Everytime someone doesn't agree with you, or you have smoked something, you are abusive and end any possible discussion.

I would almost rather you gone as much as Bruce Savage.

I'm out of this 'debate'.
 
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Hamm said:
You are becoming a bit of a dick. Everytime someone doesn't agree with you, or you have smoked something, you are abusive and end any possible discussion.

I would almost rather you gone as much as Bruce Savage.

I'm out of this 'debate'.
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Strange. I view it another way. This is how it goes;

You state Hurricane Fly's form is nowhere.
To counter this assertion, I point out four horses who have won G1 hurdles since being summarily despatched by HF last spring (some might even say that I've provided 'conclusive proof' of same ;))
You, having no answer to this, and equally no way of substantiating your ridiculous claim's about SS's Aintree form, decide the bezt course of action is to let off a smoke-bomb and withdraw from the discussion under the pretence of having your sensibilities upset.

These are classic Hamm tactics, and no surprise to me whatsoever. I know you better than you know yourself. ;)
 
Hamm said:
You are becoming a bit of a dick. Everytime someone doesn't agree with you, or you have smoked something, you are abusive and end any possible discussion.

I would almost rather you gone as much as Bruce Savage.

I'm out of this 'debate'.
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Strange. I view it another way. This is how it goes;

You state Hurricane Fly's form is nowhere.
To counter this assertion, I point out four horses who have won G1 hurdles since being summarily despatched by HF last spring (some might even say that I've provided 'conclusive proof' of same ;))
You, having no answer to this, and equally no way of substantiating your ridiculous claim's about SS's Aintree form, decide the best course of action is to let off a smoke-bomb and withdraw from the discussion under the pretence of having your sensibilities upset.

These are classic Hamm tactics, and no surprise to me whatsoever. I know you better than you know yourself. ;)
 
Hamm said:
You are becoming a bit of a dick. Everytime someone doesn't agree with you, or you have smoked something, you are abusive and end any possible discussion.

I would almost rather you gone as much as Bruce Savage.

I'm out of this 'debate'.
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Hamm in walkout shocker.

I think Grasshopper has underestimated how good Binocular was that season. Sure he wasn't the best CH winner, but Khyber Kim was a good tool. The field were strung out like washing.
 
Grasshopper said:
Strange. I view it another way. This is how it goes;

You state Hurricane Fly's form is nowhere.
To counter this assertion, I point out four horses who have won G1 hurdles since being summarily despatched by HF last spring (some might even say that I've provided 'conclusive proof' of same ;))
You, having no answer to this, and equally no way of substantiating your ridiculous claim's about SS's Aintree form, decide the best course of action is to let off a smoke-bomb and withdraw from the discussion under the pretence of having your sensibilities upset.

These are classic Hamm tactics, and no surprise to me whatsoever. I know you better than you know yourself. ;)
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Winning a graded race means nothing (it all depends on the form of said race). I asked you to show me the form of Peddlers Cross, which I say amounts to little, and hence the Champion Hurdle of last year can't be as good as you say (I am not saying it was rubbish, not at all). You chose to reply with what you did. These are no 'tactics' from me, but if you don't want to discuss what the thread is about and prefer to post as you do, fine, but I have little interest in discussing further.
 
Bar the Bull said:
Hamm in walkout shocker.

I think Grasshopper has underestimated how good Binocular was that season. Sure he wasn't the best CH winner, but Khyber Kim was a good tool. The field were strung out like washing.
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Bar the Bull in not funny shocker.

Khyber Kim, like Binocular, was a fragile sort, who looked top class for a season, but is clearly gone at the game for now.
 
its impossible to guess how much hf had left in the tank last march but all he did was beat 2 horses that are blatently better over 20f just as his main rival in ireland solwhit is.

good form but not outstanding

it is not beyond the realms of possibility that he may not cope with a horse(s) that are more suitable to the 2 mile trip than the ones he has beat in the past

zarakander lightly raced is a flat bred that has had his form boosted time and time again this season and has chetenham form and will probably improve

granduit has obviouysly improved this season and is very good at 2m albeit possibly on a flat track

sprinter song has posted good 2m mile form at cheltenham and shown improved form to win a good event at aintree (2nd in the supreme 1st in the ch i think the trainer has done this double before albeit with a gap of a year)

all three are reported to be on schedule for their next races

meanwhile HF who has missed 2 out of the last three festivals and has not run this season becuase his trainer has not been happy with him is not having at present and ideal preperation and may if he runs have to debut in the ch

for ante post betting i know which one i will be discounting and if he turns up and the other three are in form i wouldnt be so sure he will repeat last years victory
 
Hamm said:
Winning a graded race means nothing (it all depends on the form of said race). I asked you to show me the form of Peddlers Cross, which I say amounts to little, and hence the Champion Hurdle of last year can't be as good as you say (I am not saying it was rubbish, not at all). You chose to reply with what you did. These are no 'tactics' from me, but if you don't want to discuss what the thread is about and prefer to post as you do, fine, but I have little interest in discussing further.
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I thought you'd fucked off?
 
Grasshopper said:
His handicap mark of 160 is very correct, as I've said all along.

:whistle:

:D
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the win is more than 160 though..you know that winning off a mark means you have to be better than that mark;)

he's better than many will like to admit..at least i know when to admit i'm wrong:p

he is no ch winner for sure..but no back number either..on his day

thought you said he was overrated at 160 anyway?
 
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prince regent said:
its impossible to guess how much hf had left in the tank last march but all he did was beat 2 horses that are blatently better over 20f just as his main rival in ireland solwhit is.
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It's always difficult, but not impossible.

For me, HF came right back onto the bridle going to the last, and was going away again at the finish. Punchestown is a better measure of HF's superiority anyway, where he won in an effective common canter, with confirmed, top-end 2m hurdlers like Binocular and Menorah hammered with ease.


it is not beyond the realms of possibility that he may not cope with a horse(s) that are more suitable to the 2 mile trip than the ones he has beat in the past
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No-one is saying it is beyond the realms of possibility, but your theory does assume that a Champion Hurdler (Binocular) is somehow not suited to 2m.

zarakander lightly raced is a flat bred that has had his form boosted time and time again this season and has chetenham form and will probably improve
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This does look a very credible crop of ex-juveniles, but they all still have a fair bit to find to reach HF's Cheltenham level from last season (I'm using Grandouet's Bula run as a measure of all).


for ante post betting i know which one i will be discounting
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It's a form discussion, not a betting discussion. :cool:
 
I don't find the Punchestown form reliable . Hurricane Fly was dazzling that day but Menorah seems to have gone downhill since winning the Greatwood off top weight and Binocular was never right last year and had to make the running which would not have suited him at all .

That being said I think Hurricane Fly is immensely talented and is still a worthy favourite much as I like Zarkandar in particular of the younger brigade.

I should like to see the Binocular at his brilliant CH winning best to turn up though - that would be a stern test for any hurdler . I have only seen him jump and travel like that twice in his CH and the Bula at Ascot - when he hits that form he is a monster .
 
EC1 said:
would Zarkander not be a staying hurdler rather than a Ch winner?
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five-year-olds don't win the World Hurdle. Good ones have tried and failed (need to be physically advanced to manage it). That age group can win the Champion though.
 
ok grasshopper

not in any particular order
agree its a form rather than a betting discussion so my last point perhaps not relevant allthough from a form point even if i was strongly in favour of a repeat win for hf his non appearences would still be a concern in respect of him repeating or improving on last years form

i would not suggest any horse that finished behind him last year barring a jumping error will be reversing the form

i havnt assumed binocular is not suited or at least has not been suited by 2 miles how could i assume that of a champion hurdle winner (he may be suited by further now) but he seems incapable since his victory of stringing 2 similar performences together and his slick jumping which was a strong point is a noticable abscence lately

the horses i have mentioned of course have a bit to find to win a Ch there again this time last year HF had a bit to find as well

punchestown a different day over a different track menorah a fairly good supreme winner but im not sure i would call him a top end 2 miler if you use the closeness of the finish of last years bula you would have to rank cue card and silventi conti close to those comments which i wont be doing. Binoclar already mentioned.

i must admit i was wrong about HF last year to my regret opposing him without picking one to beat him this year i think i may well be right
 
Hamm is it not possible that you are underrating Peddlers Cross. His win at Newbury in the Fighting Fifth was what convinced me that he was the best of the home challenge for the Champion Hurdle. To win like he did, in totally unsuitable circumstances, was impressive for me.

As for Celestial Halo, he is a horse that I've always liked. I think he's probably a 160-165 horse which is likely to leave him vulnerable to the very best. However, I can't understand why Nicholls doesn't at least train him with the Champion in mind. Perhaps this Zarakandar is a machine . . . ?!
 
I rate Peddler's Cross as a Hurdler and I still say Binocular's form in the Champion was every bit as good, if not better than HF and believe the agencies that rate these sort of things have it about right - i.e. that they were about of equal merit.
 
EC1 said:
thought you said he was overrated at 160 anyway?
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I did. Maybe it was a freak performance? :p :D

I admit that argument might sound glib, but it's possible. :cool:

I do confess though, I was surprised he could win off his mark. It was a decent performance alright, and he showed plenty of grit too. He's evidently not the squiggle-merchant I had him pegged for previously.

:cool:
 
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