Yes.
The Road To The 2012 Champion Hurdle
- Thread starter EC1
- Start date
Yes.
Look at the subsequent performances of Cue Card and Rock on Ruby.
Bar the Bull
At the Start
And who would expect novice hurdlers to improve?
SS might beat Binocular and Hurricane Fly. But to suggest that his form in a Grade 2 end of season race is superior to Champion Hurdle form is wrong, in my view.
SS might beat Binocular and Hurricane Fly. But to suggest that his form in a Grade 2 end of season race is superior to Champion Hurdle form is wrong, in my view.
DukeofMarmalade
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Rock on Ruby beat a reliable yardstick rated 128 in Drill Sargeant by half a length that day and after a tough race at Cheltenham clearly performed well below his capabilities.
Cue Card is reasonable and nothing more, he's won a couple of gaff novice races this year where his main opponents have either not been fit or made countless jumping errors.
It's hard to assess Aintree form because it all depends how well the main players have come out of their Cheltenham races, rating the race through Drill Sargaent and Storm Brig who were both likely targetting Aintree and appeared to run their races I'd have him running somewhere around the mid - late 150's with the promise of more to come. That's still a big step from winning the CH.
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...again I'd agree that Binocular has the better form over HF (albeit slightly). SS has the best prospects for this year's race though I reckon, but this is on how good we expect him to be rather than how good his bare form is.
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Grasshopper
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This is nonsense.
Binocular's Champion Hurdle is miles below HF's. The only horse to have franked the form of Bino's Champion Hurdle since, has been Binocular himself - and even that more recent form is miles below what HF has achieved. Other than that, every horse who contested Binocular's CH has utterly failed to uphold the form.
Hamm, ignore Peddlers Cross. He has only run in the one hurdle race since Cheltenham. Oscar Whisky, Thousand Stars and Overturn have all won Graded hurdles since the Festival, and a quick squint at the Punchestown form will tell you that Binocular has upheld that form too (which is better than the Fly's CH form anyway).
The suggestion that the CH is all of a sudden questionable because PC was beaten in a novice chase is revisionist claptrap of the highest order; as is the suggestion that Binocular's Champion Hurdle was stronger form than HF's.
Binocular's Champion Hurdle is miles below HF's. The only horse to have franked the form of Bino's Champion Hurdle since, has been Binocular himself - and even that more recent form is miles below what HF has achieved. Other than that, every horse who contested Binocular's CH has utterly failed to uphold the form.
Hamm, ignore Peddlers Cross. He has only run in the one hurdle race since Cheltenham. Oscar Whisky, Thousand Stars and Overturn have all won Graded hurdles since the Festival, and a quick squint at the Punchestown form will tell you that Binocular has upheld that form too (which is better than the Fly's CH form anyway).
The suggestion that the CH is all of a sudden questionable because PC was beaten in a novice chase is revisionist claptrap of the highest order; as is the suggestion that Binocular's Champion Hurdle was stronger form than HF's.
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It's not what those who rate races reckon and to my eye Binocular was very good in his Champion as he was a couple of times before that.
Zenyatta
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I think Zarkandar could be the one. I agree 100% that if the Hurricane is to lose his crown the biggest threats look to be the as yet unseen duo of Spirit Son and Zarkandar.
Just think that Zarkandar's Triumph form is looking rock solid. There is every reason to believe that he will have improved at least as much as anything else in the race, plus the additional benefit of the breathing operation. Nicholls appears bullish about his chances, Hurricane Fly or not, and whilst that is hardly unheard of, it must mean he is showing a fair bit at home.
The feeling I get is that Nicholls was astonished by what he achieved last year given that he knew the horse wasn't A1 (before Kempton at least) and was struggling with his breathing.
Spirit Son essentially falls into the exact same category (potential rather than proven). All those who have appeared look short of the required level to me so I much prefer the two with potential over anything we have seen already.
Just think that Zarkandar's Triumph form is looking rock solid. There is every reason to believe that he will have improved at least as much as anything else in the race, plus the additional benefit of the breathing operation. Nicholls appears bullish about his chances, Hurricane Fly or not, and whilst that is hardly unheard of, it must mean he is showing a fair bit at home.
The feeling I get is that Nicholls was astonished by what he achieved last year given that he knew the horse wasn't A1 (before Kempton at least) and was struggling with his breathing.
Spirit Son essentially falls into the exact same category (potential rather than proven). All those who have appeared look short of the required level to me so I much prefer the two with potential over anything we have seen already.
Grasshopper
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Those that 'rate races' are not infallible. Once a ratings agency has given a rating they are always reluctant to downgrade the peformance thereafter, because it makes them look like muppets.
And I care little for visual superiority, when the form book tells me the race is not worth a sook.
Those that 'rate races' are not infallible. Once a ratings agency has given a rating they are always reluctant to downgrade the peformance thereafter, because it makes them look like muppets.
And I care little for visual superiority, when the form book tells me the race is not worth a sook.
Indeed not infallible, but equally you saying “This is nonsense. Binocular's Champion Hurdle is miles below HF’s” doesn’t allow for any fallibility on your part.
Speaking for myself I’m happy that Binocular’s Champion was as good and perhaps better than HF’s. I don’t think there was all that much in it to be honest and would suggest that your assertion that Binocular's Champion Hurdle is miles below HF’s, is open to serious question.
Grasshopper
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Hamm, I appreciate you were - pre-Festival at least - not an advocate (for whatever reason) of the Irish 2m hurdling form. However, I figured you to have enough nous to accept you called it wrong and move on.
But this suggestion of yours that Spirit Son's novice form from Aintree is better than the Champion Hurdle form is just about the most blinkered and unsustainable bullshit I've read in the 10 years or so I've been visiting online racing forums.
Have a word with yourself.
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Grasshopper
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You are perfectly entitled to hold your opinion, Steve - as indeed is Hamm to hold his.
I just call patent bollocks for what it is, whenever I see it - that's all.
Beating Cue Card and Rock on Ruby 15 lengths is savage form, however you choose to look at it.
It is not just Peddlers losing the Kempton race; you will note I have said several times his 2 previous wins were average, and he ran like a drain at Aintree - they all can't not be his true running.
And what did he do before that? Beat the mighty Reve de Sivola just over a length at Cheltenham, beat the monster Starluck just over a length, and you are trying to tell me Hurricane Fly beating him a length and a bit is great form?
I would suggest it is you who needs to have a word with yourself.
Grasshopper
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Is it any worse than "Binocular's Champion Hurdle is miles below HF’s" though.
Yes.
The relative merits of HF and Bino's Champion Hurdles can at least be discussed in a robust fashion, with sides taken as required. But by any measure, Hamm's assertion is that of a dribbling madman who has had too much Harveys Bristol Cream over the Festive period!
:lol:
Binocular's performance winning the CH was savage. Just because he hasn't reproduced anything like it since should take nothing away from how good he was that day.
Grasshopper
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Grasshopper
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More 'Bruce Savage' than 'Savage', I think.
Peddlers Cross beat Oscar Whisky by 5L in the CH yet at Aintree was 23L behind Oscar Whisky, seriously Aintree form is not Cheltenham form.
Also if you are using all form literally then the form of Bini & HF when matching up with Peddlers Cross will show that Hurricane Fly's CH win must be stronger.
Also if you are using all form literally then the form of Bini & HF when matching up with Peddlers Cross will show that Hurricane Fly's CH win must be stronger.
B
Bruce_Savage
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I really like this Jakers,
Some really solid posts & points.
Keep up the good work, I enjoy reading what you have to say.
Grasshopper
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WTF are you slavering about now?
Oscar Whisky, Thousand Stars, Overturn and Binocular - all of whom were roundly cuffed by an unextended HF in the spring - have all won races at G1 level this season.
Go and have a lie down somewhere, ffs.
B
Bruce_Savage
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Don't you find it at the least bit disconcerting that a jockey can win a Grade 1 and come back into the winners enclosure unhappy about the performance?
I often get tired of the same old comments from Jockeys on horses that win races, admittedly there isn't much you can expand on as a horse is a horse and all the best ones do the same thing but when you get a jockey coming out after winning a Grade 1 and putting down his mount is mouthwatering tv! it really adds a new dimension to the game, no more bullshit and honest answers.
I think Binocular is a sexy horse, he loves the cameras, loves to be hugged, loves to be kissed and pose for the public but as of now that's all contributed to his demise, the horse is running on a Ferrari body kit but a Ford engine and to be quite frank he'll come unstuck at Cheltenham against true wound up opposition.
I often get tired of the same old comments from Jockeys on horses that win races, admittedly there isn't much you can expand on as a horse is a horse and all the best ones do the same thing but when you get a jockey coming out after winning a Grade 1 and putting down his mount is mouthwatering tv! it really adds a new dimension to the game, no more bullshit and honest answers.
I think Binocular is a sexy horse, he loves the cameras, loves to be hugged, loves to be kissed and pose for the public but as of now that's all contributed to his demise, the horse is running on a Ferrari body kit but a Ford engine and to be quite frank he'll come unstuck at Cheltenham against true wound up opposition.